Conicals for Kibler SMR

[wiscoaster]

.... My question stands, where are you going to find .450 conicals?

I don't know. If I knew I wouldn't be asking you guys, would I?

One diameter .44 cal round balls come in is .451 - if somebody's making conicals for .44 cal revolvers - and they are (but I don't know what diameters are available or who has them) - maybe those would work. Dunno. It's all a learning experience. Research ongoing. Partially here.

If it turns out I have to cast my own then the project is off. I'm way too far from being into that yet.

 

[stikshooter]

The following is IMO based experience, others mileage will vary and I'm sure they'll say so.
Definitely want a lube groove of some sort unless you want to go through the hassle of paper patching, or you can get the needed lube with felt wads. Stuff like this is easier to find in the larger calibers as premade, especially .50. If you cast your own that opens things up, the lowest weight LEE REAL bullets can sometimes do well in slow twist barrels and are molds are cheap. Flat or hollow both depends on what you can find and what your rifle likes, even a flat base projectile will obdurate with black powder to engage the rifling. This will get TLDR quick.

People roll their eyes and throw tantrums that make 2 year olds envious when one mentions Idaho Lewis but anyone wanting to experiment with conicals can get a good start with his YouTube content. Just have to take what he shows and change the principles to what you're trying to accomplish.

Lewis used factory stocked 1-48 twist no way using RBs , but his conicals were outstanding . So much I own the mold in 45/50/54 and they are killers on anything you hit!/Ed

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

I thought about trying the tc maxi in my .32 just to see.

The TC maxi is most likely too long for the 1/48 twist. Those need at least a 1/30 in that caliber. Options are limited. Will most likely require casting a short pistol bullet and sizing to fit.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

Lewis used factory stocked 1-48 twist no way using RBs , but his conicals were outstanding . So much I own the mold in 45/50/54 and they are killers on anything you hit!/Ed

Where did I say anything about RB's? He states what barrels he is using in nearly every video. There are some with stock TC's but most are Rice and GM with 1-24 twist.

 

[stikshooter]

Where did I say anything about RB's? He states what barrels he is using in nearly every video. There are some with stock TC's but most are Rice and GM with 1-24 twist.

You didn't (BUT) what twist do you have? And no most were 1-18/1-17 but your Kibler (HAS) a RB twist and that''s exactly why I mentioned RB ,but then maybe Jim made you a one off twist (HA) My Kiblers are all RB twist I'm surprised you purchased being ignorant of that fact , but hey tell everyone (it's a slow day) /Ed

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

You didn't (BUT) what twist do you have? And no most were 1-18/1-17 but your Kibler (HAS) a RB twist and that''s exactly why I mentioned RB ,but then maybe Jim made you a one off twist (HA) My Kiblers are all RB twist I'm surprised you purchased being ignorant of that fact , but hey tell everyone (it's a slow day) /Ed

Why did I know I'd regret replying to your response when it was clear you hadn't fully read the post you quoted... Thanks for calling me ignorant I guess.

 

[Garbear34]

The TC maxi is most likely too long for the 1/48 twist. Those need at least a 1/30 in that caliber. Options are limited. Will most likely require casting a short pistol bullet and sizing to fit.

I tried .36 maxi ball in my traditions Shenandoah it's 1-48 it shot good. I'm just curious. I've gone through near 200 rb in my .32 kibler. I love that rifle.

 

[TCMonts]

Track has the PA Pellets. They are pre-lubed, just push them down and shoot. Card wads or felt wads are optional if you get blow-by that causes leading. They measure .512 so you need a good bump if your rifling is on the deep side.

 

[wiscoaster]

Last night I came across this video:

that explains the relationship between required minimum twist rate and minimum required spin rate to stabilize round ball bullet versus cylindrical/conical bullet in a way that made sense to me. I guess before I proceed I first need to make sure I know what my barrel's twist rate is, and whether or not it's tight enough. I suppose I never paid much attention to that little statistic before.

 

[Grenadier1758]

@wiscoaster, your 45 caliber Kibler rifle will most likely have a round ball twist. I would recommend that you get the shortest conical available such as the Lee 200 or 250 grain REAL conical bullet. Of course, first measure the groove to groove diameter of the bore to compare to the maximum diameter of the REAL bullet. You want the top bands to engrave on the rifling and seal the bore or any hope of accuracy is lost. Well, some accuracy can be retained by paper patching of the bullet, but the advantage or rapid reloading is lost and complications are being added to the loading process.

https://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-45cal-200

 

[Siringo]

I have a 50 caliber Woodsrunner. I also had a supply of Hornady 50 caliber PA “ballets”. Those are made for a 1/66 twist. The Woodsrunner barrel twist is 1/70. I shot some of these just for giggles and they go through the target at 50 yards sideways. No matter how fast or slow they were going. In just 4 inches of barrel twist, they become unstable. I would venture to say that even at 1/66 they are marginally stable and would be deflected easily by brush. A ball never seems to know it hit anything.

The 45 caliber SMR barrel has a 1/70 twist also. It WILL NOT stabilize a conical at all. It’s a round ball twist.

Your .445 ball is too large. There is not enough space between the ball and the lands. Remember the bore (land to land) is .450. With the .445 ball there is only 0.005 inch space between the ball and the land. Versus a .440 there is 0.010 inches. I’d suggest going down to a .440 ball. I use a .440 with a 0.020 patch in my SMR. 50 to 55 grains for Swiss 3f. But my muzzle is coned. Plus I swab every shot. But this shoots the best for me.

 

[wiscoaster]

...

The 45 caliber SMR barrel has a 1/70 twist also. It WILL NOT stabilize a conical at all. It’s a round ball twist.

....

OK, thanks for the good info. I think knowing that puts the lid on this project. No sense wasting any money on it. Still, considering it was a good learning experience, and those are never a waste of time.

 

[longcruise]

I think the kibler 45 is a 1:60 twist. Kibler gets his barrels from Green Mountain. Below are the GM twist rates. I doubt if Kibler is ordering a 1:70 over the standard 1:60 given that 1:60 is an excellent twist rate in a 45 rb gun.

• Each barrel has eight lands and grooves.
• Grooves cut .010 to .012" deep, depending on caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 48 inches for .32 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 48 inches for .36 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 56 inches for .40 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 60 inches for .45 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 70 inches for .50 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 70 inches for .54 caliber.
• Twist is 1 turn in 70 inches for .58 caliber.

 

[longcruise]

that explains the relationship between required minimum twist rate and minimum required spin rate to stabilize round ball bullet versus cylindrical/conical bullet in a way that made sense to me. I guess before I proceed I first need to make sure I know what my barrel's twist rate is, and whether or not it's tight enough. I suppose I never paid much attention to that little statistic before.

There's some erroneous info in that video. Example; suggesting that stability may be fine at close range but will degrade at longer range. The effects of air moving over the projectile is a factor in destabilizing the bullet the idea that bigger charges/velocity is false. If the bullet has enough spin to stabilize upon leaving the Muzzle, STABILITY WILL IMPROVE OVER DISTANCE!!. Forward velocity degrades faster than rotational velocity. Therefore if the bullet is going to turn over it will happen very shortly after leaving the Muzzle.

Another thing that hasn't come up is stability upon entering the animal. One reliable source on this states that rotational velocity needs to be 7 times the rate of what it needs in the atmosphere. Some hunters of larger animals, eg., moose ha e found that bullets like a maxi ball tend to change direction while penetrating. The savior is expansion to a less bullet shape and more a gob of lead. Which incidentally is the shape of a ball before it even gets there.

 

[RMH]

My 45 Kibler is a 1:70 twist GM. Marked on the bottom of the barrel.

 

[longcruise]

Maybe the GM specs I posted are out of date?? The 1:70 for a 45 doesn't make sense IMO.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

OK, thanks for the good info. I think knowing that puts the lid on this project. No sense wasting any money on it. Still, considering it was a good learning experience, and those are never a waste of time.

If it's a 1-70 I personally wouldn't mess with it. Those Hornady PA and old Buffalo Ball-et conicals are kind of intended to be used in place of round balls. They can shoot really well out of 1-66 twist barrels but anything slower than that may just be futile.

 

[Eric Krewson]

I have a straight, square rifled GM .40, I am pretty sure the barrel twist is 1 in 48. I have tried a variety of conical projectiles out of it and all shot very poorly. I had a friend who had the same barrel in his rifle and could drive tacks with his. He even gave me some bullets to try, I shot the same load as he did and still had a very poor performance. With a patched .390 round ball my barrel it will cloverleaf at 50 yard shooing any powder load from 30 to 60 gr of 3F.

 

[sqqy14]

People recommending Hornady PA conicals...I don't believe they're made in .45 only .50.

 

[Indy Durtdigger]

People recommending Hornady PA conicals...I don't believe they're made in .45 only .50.

You are correct, I was only referencing the style as something that should work in a slow twist barrel. The old Buffalo Ball-et ones aren't available anymore but were basically the same thing and that's a shame.