Conicals in a Hawken-style rifle

[joliver]

Were conicals used very often in the original Hawkens, or did they use strictly PRB? I have a Lyman .54 caliber Hawken-style, with the slow twist barrel and, of course, I use PRB. That leads to my second question: were any of the original Hawkens made with fast twist barrels so they could use conicals or sabots? I'm thinking of buying an extra barrel with the fast twist (1:32)and using either conicals or saboted bullets in it.

 

[SCATTERSHOT]

I remember reading years ago that the Hawken brothers used a 1:48 twist in their rifles, regardless of caliber, because that's the only rifling machine they had.

Don't remember the source, but it wasn't just heresay.

Hope that helps.
Gene

 

[bearbeater]

hey shot
my 54calT/C shoots RB real good and conical very good. 1:48 twist. my question here is if i use a GMB in 1:60 or 70 will it shoot a conical well. Some of the response of other posts are yes and maybe. The best response I read here is the Lee REAL conical shoots best in 1:60 twist. I need to learn more for others and this is the place to learn. I use Lee REAL and cast them. they work very well. But Hunt with a modified T/C Minnie.

Bearbeater

 

Were conicals used very often in the original Hawkens, or did they use strictly PRB? I have a Lyman .54 caliber Hawken-style, with the slow twist barrel and, of course, I use PRB. That leads to my second question: were any of the original Hawkens made with fast twist barrels so they could use conicals or sabots? I'm thinking of buying an extra barrel with the fast twist (1:32)and using either conicals or saboted bullets in it.

Claude Minie invented the conical bullet in 1849!! I've never seen any historical referances of conical bullets be'n used in "original" Hawken rifles in any of the books I've read involve'n these rifles.

This tells me thet shoot'n conicals in a Hawken style rifle is a "modern idea", and is not "traditional" unless someone can prove otherwise!!

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Slamfire]

You may well be right about no one shooting conicals in an original Hawken, however there were conicals prior to the minie ball. Some have actually been dug up on the battlefield at Saratoga. :sorry:

 

What was the twist rate of the rifles they were shot from????

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Lewis50]

Some years ago I tried shooting conicals in my Traditions 54 1 in 66 Hawkin, granted not a top of the line rifle but I got a deal on it. I tried buffalo bullets, TC maxi balls and hunters , sabotted pistol bullets, all with various charges of ffg and pyrodex. That gun gave me fits with all of them, no combination gave me consistent accuracy. I finally put it in the closet and there it sat until this year when I drug it out and tried ffg and fffg and PRB, damn if it didn't shoot fine. So in answer to your question they didn't work in this particular gun but who knows with yours. :results:

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Don't know about Saratoga, but there were early conicals other than the minnie. I once had (wish I still had) a little book called "The Modern American Rifle" , don't recall the author. It was first publish before the civil war and this fellow used nothing but "picket balls", which were a short, sharp pointed conical loaded with a cloth patch. He seemed to speak of them as if they were well known and nothing really new.
Another conical was called a "sugar loaf", sorta like a double ball, and also was loaded with a cloth patch.
I seem to recall that Hawkens were fired with some of these conicals. Maybe.
So why ain't they rendezvous legal? Probly same as peep sights, just because.

 

[Deadeye]

About 20 yrs. ago I rebarreled a .54 TC Renegade with a 1/70 twist GM barrel. A note with the barrel said "do not shoot conicals in this barrel". Of course I did and at 100 yds. it shot better with conicals than it did with PRB. I have no idea why but barrels don't always do what's expected of them. The conical was the TC maxiball, the heavy one, over 400 grs. :results:

 

[Slamfire]

I don't know Bob, they didn't dig up any rifles that I know of. :crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

What calibur were they??

rollingb

 

[Slamfire]

I keep forgettin' yore blind and can't read these answers. I don't know. eace:

 

[dchawken]

Hey, that's exactly what I'm getting ready to do. I just picked up a Renegade stock/lock in eBay, and intend to add a .54 GMB. I was even going to post this same question re. twist. Small world.

Deadeye, how did you like that rifle?

 

I cain't find any references of pre-Civil War conical bullets be'n found on the Saratoga battlefield, but I did find this (nice pictures too).
http://www.treasurenet.com/westeast/200109/relichunter/

rollingb

 

[Slamfire]

They are indeed nice, I'm searchin' for my source. Probably TV either Discovery or History Channels.

 

I've never seen any historical references of conical bullets be'n used in "original" Hawken rifles in any of the books I've read involve'n these rifles.

This tells me thet shoot'n conicals in a Hawken style rifle is a "modern idea", and is not "traditional" unless someone can prove otherwise!!

Louis Simond's, an acquaintance of Lewis Garrard's, spoke of a Cincinnatian at the Taos Insurrection of 1847 as: "Out in the pinyon, that morning with his big Saint Loui' gun - a Jake Hawkins gun, she was, eh? He had bullets an inch long, with a sharp pint - be doggoned ef they wasn't some eh?"

The history of conicals goes way back before Minie:
The English, who never succeeded in making their speculations, or practice in firearms prevail, but who always made a great noise about their improvements, used the conical bullet for the first time in the year 1627, at the siege of La Rochelle, a Protestant stronghold, besieged and taken by Richelieu.

The false or loading muzzle, which was used to help maintain alignment while loading tight fitting conicals - at that time known as picket or sugarloaf bullets - amongst other things, was patented by Alvan Clark in 1840. His refined Wesson rifles, false muzzles, gain twist rifling, "freed" aka choke bore were used in military action as well as for target work>
"I shall forward...the amt. due Wesson for the Rifle....Everybody....is pleased with Wessons Rifle and are anxious to obtain them."
Cpt Samuel Walker, Castle Perote, Mex 1847

In 1835, match rifles began to shoot the "picket" or "sugarloaf" bullet, a conical shaped round that gave slightly better range than the round ball. It, too, used a linen patch. Because of its shape, it was difficult to get started down the barrel accurately. If the nose of that style bullet is not in alignment with the axis of the bore, one side of the base of the bullet will exit the muzzle sooner than the other, giving an erratic spin to the bullet, thus decreasing accuracy. In order to counter this, the "straight starter" was introduced.

 

[Tahquamenon]

I like conical's in 1:48 or faster twist barrels.

Great accuracy and huge downrange energy.