conicals?

[rhwestfall]

I seem to see a heavy favoritism toward prb's. I do ask though what is thoughts on the various conicals out there? The TC Firestorm I'm shooting (flinter) supposedly can handle conicals as well as sabots. Thoughts please.

 

[Howard]

Not necessarily. There are a number of traditional style rifles in both flintlocks and caplock that can shoot conicals reasonably well. These generally have a 1-in-48 twist, which is usually enough to stabilize a conical. Examples include Lyman's Deerstalker (flint or cap available), Traditions Hawken (flint or cap available), and Thompson Center' Hawken (flint and cap available, I think). Some, like Lyman's Great Plains Hunter, which comes in both flintlock and caplock (I have the caplock), have a faster twist (1-in-32) and should shoot sabots well (although I don't use them myself).
Lots of choices out there.

 

BobW,.... I guess, Ive never seen any "reason" to shoot anythin other than roundballs. I've sucessfully take'n large critters such as elk, moose, caribou, and black bears, with single roundball shots.

If it ain't "broke", I ain't gonna try'n "fix" it!! :haha:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Howard]

True enough, rolling. In .50 or .54 cal, a patched roundball can take deer out to about 120 yards, and moose too, provided you're alot closer.

 

[jim gray]

http://www.oegmag.com/ThompsonCenterFireStorm.asp

This looked like some pretty good information on your gun, and the write-up is from a beginners perspective.

Most of what I know about the firestorm came from this forum so if you do a search, I think you'll find just about anything you want to know.

Since the rifling in your firestorm is a 1:48 twist, you should be able to use just about any projectile you want to use if you take the time to work up the right load.

Your observation is correct though that most forum members on the flintlock board are prejudiced toward the round ball.

 

[cayugad]

Many rifles with 1:48 twist or faster are very good at shooting conicals. Flintlocks are no different although I kind of agree with RollingB that a well placed roundball is usually all that is necessary.

They had a heck of a sale on powerbelts this month. So I bought four packs of them for the .54 caliber. Today I took out the Lyman Trade Rifle Flintlock which has a 1:48 twist. I was shooting 405 grain copper plated HP Powerbelts with 85 grains of Goex 2f. Shot #8 was the last one of the day and it was a delayed fire. I did find that the heavy powerbelts shot much lower then the roundballs...

I think with some work I could make this Flintlock shoot the powerbelts real well. I also have some other conicals to try. But for the most part I really like shooting the roundballs...

 

[jim gray]

The Hornady PA conicals have shot well for me in several different guns and they don't seem to be finicky about the rifling. They are made for slower twist barrels though.

 

Many rifles with 1:48 twist or faster are very good at shooting conicals. Flintlocks are no different although I kind of agree with RollingB that a well placed roundball is usually all that is necessary.

They had a heck of a sale on powerbelts this month. So I bought four packs of them for the .54 caliber. Today I took out the Lyman Trade Rifle Flintlock which has a 1:48 twist. I was shooting 405 grain copper plated HP Powerbelts with 85 grains of Goex 2f. Shot #8 was the last one of the day and it was a delayed fire. I did find that the heavy powerbelts shot much lower then the roundballs...

I think with some work I could make this Flintlock shoot the powerbelts real well. I also have some other conicals to try. But for the most part I really like shooting the roundballs...

Cayugad,.... I've been sit'n here stare'n at thet targit try'n to figger out "wher",.... shots #5 and, #6, went???? :winking: :haha:

YMHS
rollingb

 

[Stumpkiller]

Pricy.

I cast my own R.E.A.L.s for a while and used them during regular season, but I've gone completely round ball in my muzzleloaders since then. I can't see with iron sights far enough to justify using them.

 

[roundball]

I seem to see a heavy favoritism toward prb's.Thoughts please.

One major reason for that is that patched round balls are one of the primary items / symbols of the early american traditional muzzleloading era and in that regard, are typically associated with flintlocks, are extremely accurate, are totally effective on game, are the least expensive projectile, and what I now shoot 99.99% of the time.

(Having said that, I've also got a soft spot for the .45cal and in addition to PRB's, the TC .45cal/255grn Maxi-Hunters are tack drivers in TC .45cal 1:48" barrels and I like to go after deer with them once a year).

But Flintlocks and round balls go together like salt & pepper...suggest Hornady .490/180grn balls and .018" TC prelubed pillow ticking patches in your Firestorm...50grns of Goex FFFg is an excellent target load, and 80-90grns Goex FFFg + an Oxyoke wonderwad + PRB has been an outstanding hunting load...plenty of power for deer in the normal 25-100yd woods distances...and you can afford to shoot it year round at the range...can't do that with conicals unless you're independently wealthy.
:redthumb:

 

[Rat]

The question is indeed, why fix it if it aint' broke...it would be hard to argue that a PRB leaves much to be desired, unless you are elk hunting with a .36 calibre.

In some ways a slug will make the rifle more powerful...but to really see the increase you have to increase pressure quite a bit, and with a flinter a lot of that extra pressure will come out the touch-hole and errode it a little faster. No biggie if you have a replaceable touch-hole liner. But what I'm trying to say is that by going to a slug, you will increase your projectile mass slightly, but reduce velocity substantially...to get the velocity back up you will have to up pressure quite a bit.

Round balls work very well because they both penetrate and expand. Slugs will penetrate more.

If one really sees a need for modern trick bullets, or pistol bullets wrapped in plastic, perhaps a modern rifle would be a better choice.

:sorry:

If I really had the need to fire a slug in my flinter, I think the REAL would be my choice...but I don't believe the bore on my Jaeger will ever see a slug. And I don't "hate" slugs...I love minnie rifles. There just is no NEED to fire a slug in anything .50 calibre and up.

Just a thought.

:yakyak:

Rat

 

[Tahquamenon]

BobW,

The 1:48 T/C barrel on your Firestorm should shoot very well with just about anything you stuff in there with a properly worked up load/charge. Even sabot with milder loads.

I shoot conical's all the time and for decades for hunting, target and plinking. I also shoot a bunch PRB. I shot a bunch of both recently with the Firestorm & 1:28 twist.

With a flat base conical like the T/C Maxiball or Maxihunter, I would strongly suggest using a felt wad like the Ox-Yoke Wonderwad. I also use wads with "concave" bottom conical such as the Hornady Great Plains.

I also use wads with PRB for accuracy.

Certainly, as mentioned you don't need to shoot concial's in many situations. A PRB and a good worked up load (+ a wad IMO) will do just fine.

But what the heck? With a 1:48 twist barrel you at least have the option. Slower than 1:48 will tend to not stabilize the longer length bullet well enough for hunting load accuracy. conical's are very accurate, fun to shoot and huge kinetic energy. The difference in mass is not slight, it's several orders of magnitude.

If you are looking for more downrange power or for dangerous game I would consider the conical.

PRB shooting is the least expensive, followed by conical and finally sabot.

.50 cal Projectile Weights
Roundball= 175gr
conical's= From about 275gr on up to almost 500gr

T/C Maxi-Ball and Hunter Conical.
Hornady Great Plains Conical.
No-Excuse Conical.
Ox-Yoke Wonderwad.

I'm not suggesting that you either should or should not shoot conical's. That's up to you. It's your rifle and your choice.

Good luck!
:imo: :thumbsup:

 

[Walks with fire]

It really doesn't matter what twist you have for the most part-some guns with roundball twists will shoot conicals just fine and others will not. I have a T/C PA Hunter Carbine with a 1/66 twist and it shoots 270 grain Maxi Ball-ets from Buffalo Bullet Company into 4" at 100 yards from the bench. I can get about 3" with roundballs. I have taken deer with roundballs but very much perfer the heavier conical or ball-et type bullet. In my opinion they are much better deer loads-others will say they are not but you should experiment on your own to find out for yourself. As far as accuracy goes for your gun try different charges, patches, conicals, powders etc. until you come up with the best load for your gun. As far as loads go for blackpowder its my feeling you should hit em as hard as you can and to me that means heavy bullets and hefty charges. After you chase a deer around that was hit just a little off with a roundball you will want to go with more slug and hefty charges. The roundball can and does put them right down sometimes but other times it does not. The wound from a round ball seals over with hair and fat sometimes and does not have the impact shock of a hollowpointed maxi. Try them and you will notice a difference in performance. :m2c:

 

[Tahquamenon]

I've only got the one barrel with 1:66 and I never tried the ball-ett in that lower of bullet length and weight for
conical. I've only tried the longer heavier conicals and the accuracy was about 6" at 100 yard with large game hunting loads.

I won't deer hunt with anything that does not shoot better than 6" at 100 yards.

:hmm: Thanks! I've got something else to try!

 

[Big John]

I shoot t/c maxi-balls out of my 1:66 twist green mt. barrel, one clean shot through a buffalo at 60yds.

 

[shadyrest]

both of my t/c pa hunter's shoot best with conicals, they dont shoot rb's shababy either, i shoot 385 gr hornady great plains bullets backed by 95 gr of 3f i can get groups out past 100 that are more than adequate for hunting, conversely i cant get a group under 7" with my lyman gpr at even 50 yards with maxi's
---sam

 

[rhwestfall]

Thanks to everyone for the thoughts. My next question (although answered strongly if you read between the lines in many posts elsewere) is if a .50 prb is really adequate at 175g for reliably harvesting deer. Wasn't the concept of the .54 really evolved because of the exponential mass increase with slight change in cal? I'm old school where the idea was to hit as hard as you could (in my previous life I was a 12ga 3" slug shooter) even in the short range hunting I do (never taken an animal at further than 40 yards due to the cover I hunt). I have the .50 (for now), is mass really the important consideration at the short ranges I am talking about? It does seem though that I need to find out what works for my gun and what I am comfortable with. Thanks again all.

 

[Rebel]

Check the bullet weight on a box of '06's. Usually 150 or 180 grs. About the same as the rd. ball in a .50 cal. So weight isn't the factor, accurate shot placement is. YES, a 175 gr. .50 cal rd. ball is suficient for taking deer, and even elk, if the shot is put in the right place. I have taken a number of western Mule deer with a .50 cal. rd. ball, and they didn't know the difference between it and a .54. Of course i would make sure i was close enough to put that rd. ball where i wanted it. Once stalked to within 13 yds for a shot. This sport puts the HUNT back in Hunting.

 

[Tahquamenon]

It does seem though that I need to find out what works for my gun and what I am comfortable with.

You answered your own question.

BTW, everything comes down to shot placement. Regardless of caliber, charge or projectile.

PRB does work excellent out to about 100 yards, but does not inflict nearly the damage and energy as a heavier conical. Especially conical's with hollow points as you get more kinetic and hydrostatic energy.

With 50 cal and within 100 yards, either conical or PRB will work just fine on deer or other game.

Personally I favor tossing the heavier artillery at deer and larger game. I've seen too many do allot of running around after being shot with PRB and great shot placement. Even at very short yardage. I don't like to chase them as much, so I choose to use a bigger hammer. :: :winking: :thumbsup:

 

[cayugad]

At short ranges, if you can place your shot, you would never tell the difference between the .50 and the .54 caliber roundball... :imo:

The reason I like the bigger calibers such as the .54 and .58 caliber is the further away you get, the heavier projectile should retain more down range energy.