Conversion from modern to traditional

[AndyJ]

This may be an odd concept but I have a modern muzzleloader (Knight Wolverine) and, since my son is getting a flintlock kit (~$500-600), I thought I would too...then a strange thought came to mind of converting my knight to a traditional style. Was wondering if anyone has heard of that being done...I can pick up a drop-in wood stock ($80) and strip/sand/refinish with a nice stain but it just may not end up being the same.
Any thoughts besides getting the kit instead?
Thanks
Tom

 

[Grenadier1758]

The Knight Wolverine is not a side hammer traditional rifle so the barrel and lock can't be converted to a traditional rifle unless the entire breech is cut off and the lock and triggers are replaced.

I have what apparently was a full choke 12 gauge single barred modern shotgun. The breech was cut off to install a traditional breech plug. An inexpensive lock was procured, butt plate, wooden stock, and trigger guard were pulled from a scrap pile and assembled into a 1970's West (St. Louis) County Trade gun. So, it can be done. A kit would be simpler and probably cheaper.

 

[64Springer]

Sell the in-line.

Buy a kit.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

What Grenadier1758 says.

Anything can be made into anything. In another century or so, somebody could probably fit warp nacelles on a Douglass DC3, brace and pressurize the cabin and make a starship out of it... but the cost of retrofitting an antique like that would exceed the cost of Fireball XL-5 (I double dog dare anyone to guess that reference without Googling!).

 

[Loyalist Dave]

This may be an odd concept but I have a modern muzzleloader (Knight Wolverine) and, since my son is getting a flintlock kit (~$500-600), I thought I would too...then a strange thought came to mind of converting my knight to a traditional style. Was wondering if anyone has heard of that being done...I can pick up a drop-in wood stock ($80) and strip/sand/refinish with a nice stain but it just may not end up being the same.
Any thoughts besides getting the kit instead?
Thanks
Tom

Unfortunately,
As @Grenadier1758 wrote, the firing mechanism can't be retro engineered to a sidelock, traditional rifle. Well, at least without much more money than the cost of a kit, or a nice, used traditional sidelock.

Since it's an inline, maybe we should discuss kits and/or used rifles that traditional?

LD

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks guys for your comments...appreciated...think my son and I are heading to the store
tomorrow for kit acquisition efforts!
Tom

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

What Grenadier1758 says.

Anything can be made into anything. In another century or so, somebody could probably fit warp nacelles on a Douglass DC3, brace and pressurize the cabin and make a starship out of it... but the cost of retrofitting an antique like that would exceed the cost of Fireball XL-5 (I double dog dare anyone to guess that reference without Googling!).

Fireball XL5... a puppet show produced by Gerry Anderson in the early 60's, which featured a rocketship whose mode of launch was very similar (and no doubt influenced by) the German V1, which was launched off a ramp via a rocket propelled sled. And I didn't look that up... It was my favourite programme as a small child back in the day! Do I win my 5 pounds? You must be a Brit like me if you remember that!

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Fireball XL5... a puppet show produced by Gerry Anderson in the early 60's, which featured a rocketship whose mode of launch was very similar (and no doubt influenced by) the German V1, which was launched off a ramp via a rocket propelled sled. And I didn't look that up... It was my favourite programme as a small child back in the day! Do I win my 5 pounds?

Impressive! Not many around who remember that show. I loved it as a kid.

 

[Sir Boniface Harrison]

Impressive! Not many around who remember that show. I loved it as a kid.

Oddly enough, the 50's Rock n'Roll band I play in used to do the theme tune. Very catchy song!



Sorry about the 'off topic'... now back to the muzzle loading!

 

[Nameless Hunter]

What Grenadier1758 says.



Anything can be made into anything. In another century or so, somebody could probably fit warp nacelles on a Douglass DC3, brace and pressurize the cabin and make a starship out of it... but the cost of retrofitting an antique like that would exceed the cost of Fireball XL-5 (I double dog dare anyone to guess that reference without Googling!).

Seen the show kidas a

What Grenadier1758 says.

Anything can be made into anything. In another century or so, somebody could probably fit warp nacelles on a Douglass DC3, brace and pressurize the cabin and make a starship out of it... but the cost of retrofitting an antique like that would exceed the cost of Fireball XL-5 (I double dog dare anyone to guess that reference without Googling!).

Watched it as a kid.

 

[necchi]

Go ahead and get the kit instead, but you can still use that inline in a somewhat traditional manner, our club does.
They work great hanging from a rope at the 50yrd line, it's fun to see how many shots it takes to bust it in half,

 

[AndyJ]

Ok...so my son picked up a traditions mountain rifle flintlock kit and I picked up a Miroku Ultra-High .45 Cal flintlock last evening...quick question for the group...I have searched for an Ultra-High manual but am striking out. does anyone know where I can find one?
Thanks

 

[necchi]

Ultra-Hi was just a here and gone importer, I don't think they lasted for a decade.
They hit the market at a high point in the late 70's into the 80's then "poof",,gone.
The Miroku barrels were good and they still are.
What info do you seek from a manual(?),, a lot of the info is generic across models and brands with our traditional guns.
Anything specific?

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks for your input...I've taken it apart and in looking at the barrel
in particular two things come to mind...
1) Does the breech plug come off (might be helpful for cleaning)...which
begs the question of even if it does should it be regularly removed...
2) forgive me for not knowing proper terminology (looked but struck out)
but the tiny ignition hole that's adjacent to the pan...what size aught it to
be and if I wanted to run 3f in the pan as well as down the barrel would it
be ok to open it up slightly from standard and by how much? The smallest
bit I've got is 1/16"
3) A somewhat unrelated question...but did these ever come as kits? The
shaping of the stock appears lacking where the butt hardware is attached...
not well mating.
Thanks
Tom

 

[necchi]

1.) Breech plugs with these are always left in place. Never need to be removed
2.) "Flash hole", research or questions about the size of that hole can be done in the flintlock section of the forum
3.) Not sure
Most of the stuff for your rifle will be just like the info in this manual;
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/data/CURRENT - FIT 7 Revised Final FINAL_1477335832.pdf

 

[Eterry]

Thanks guys for your comments...appreciated...think my son and I are heading to the store
tomorrow for kit acquisition efforts!
Tom

My dear friend and black powder mentor made hundreds of muzzleloading shotguns from modern shotgun barrels for 50 years.

You could install a breech plug with integral tang ( as I've seen done), restock it, drill either a touch hole or a larger hole for a drum. Then proceed with your build.
It certainly would be one of a kind.
I'll ask Ken has he ever built using an inline barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thanks for your input...I've taken it apart and in looking at the barrel
in particular two things come to mind...
1) Does the breech plug come off (might be helpful for cleaning)...which
begs the question of even if it does should it be regularly removed...
2) forgive me for not knowing proper terminology (looked but struck out)
but the tiny ignition hole that's adjacent to the pan...what size aught it to
be and if I wanted to run 3f in the pan as well as down the barrel would it
be ok to open it up slightly from standard and by how much? The smallest
bit I've got is 1/16"
3) A somewhat unrelated question...but did these ever come as kits? The
shaping of the stock appears lacking where the butt hardware is attached...
not well mating.
Thanks
Tom

1. The breech plug probably comes out. It is not necessary to remove it for cleaning and is most certainly not recommended by us.

2. The touch hole (the tiny ignition hole next to the pan) should be 1/16". That is the optimal size that we recommend. If the touch hole is 1/16" in diameter, then 3fg real black powder is good enough to be used in the pan as well as for the main charge. Real black powder such as Scheutzen, Swiss, GOEX when it becomes available is to be used as a powder. Substitute black powders such as Pyrodex, Tripple Seven, and others will function very poorly at best if at all.

3. In some of our opinions, these came as fully assembled kits. Some wood work is quite likely. These were very much an entry level flintlock and at this price point, there was not a lot of quality functioning built in. They can be made to work, but these rifles really fueled the flintlocks are unreliable messages that occurred in the 1970's. Often the frizzens were soft, so, poor sparking and unreliable ignition were all too common with the UltrHI.

 

[Eterry]

Thanks for your input...I've taken it apart and in looking at the barrel
in particular two things come to mind...
1) Does the breech plug come off (might be helpful for cleaning)...which
begs the question of even if it does should it be regularly removed...
2) forgive me for not knowing proper terminology (looked but struck out)
but the tiny ignition hole that's adjacent to the pan...what size aught it to
be and if I wanted to run 3f in the pan as well as down the barrel would it
be ok to open it up slightly from standard and by how much? The smallest
bit I've got is 1/16"
3) A somewhat unrelated question...but did these ever come as kits? The
shaping of the stock appears lacking where the butt hardware is attached...
not well mating.
Thanks
Tom

There are very few reasons to remove the breech plug. Usually muzzleloaders are cleaned by putting the breech end in a bucket of warm soapy water. Then run a rod with cloth mop in the barrel until you feel the barrel is clean. The vacuum will draw the soapy water in the barrel. Some pull the nipple first, including me. This let's more water flush the barrel.

I've never, in over 44 years, pulled a breech plug for cleaning. It's a great way to Mar the barrel and plug.

Many barrels have the plug and nipple drum attached To each other.

 

[Eterry]

This may be an odd concept but I have a modern muzzleloader (Knight Wolverine) and, since my son is getting a flintlock kit (~$500-600), I thought I would too...then a strange thought came to mind of converting my knight to a traditional style. Was wondering if anyone has heard of that being done...I can pick up a drop-in wood stock ($80) and strip/sand/refinish with a nice stain but it just may not end up being the same.
Any thoughts besides getting the kit instead?
Thanks
Tom

I spent the afternoon with my Mentor, Ken.
He said he's seen several inline barrels transformed to a cap or flintlock. There is absolutely no reason to cut off the breech. As I said earlier, a plug with tang, ( either attached or separate) is needed. Then proceed like any other assembly.
Ken also raised the issue; the barrel will most likely be a very fast twist, requiring either a conical, very low powder charge, or those things we don't talk about here that use a plastic cup and a bullet.

 

[AndyJ]

Thanks for the inputs. One thing that did come to mind was the inherent higher twist rate which isnt overly patch/ball friendly...in thinking about all the things that should be done to make the conversion work (blank stock, hardware, lock, trigger, ect...) I would be $ ahead buying a new kit. Think I'll finish up the ultra-high work and get it functioning and go from there. From my untrained eye's perspective the barrel, lock assy seems to be well built...where it seems to be lacking is the finish detail.
Thanks again for your help...appreciated.
Tom