Converting Percussion back to Flint

[Hookj42]

I'm new on this forum, so please excuse me if this has been covered before.

For some time I have been trying to find out how difficult it would be to convert a percussion rifle back to a flint lock rifle! All thoughts/ experiences would be appreciated.

 

[galamb]

It "depends".

If it's a factory made rifle some have a (not really complex, but "unable to alter") breech plug that would have to be changed. Then of course it would require a "lock change".

The Spanish made guns were made with breech plugs that were not meant to be removed or altered "outside of the factory" - so the likes of Traditions and CVA to name a couple might be "more trouble and cost" than what it would be worth to sell them and buy a flinter.

T/C, Lyman and Pedersoli could be converted, but again, cost may be a factor depending on the value of the rifle to start with.

Lyman and Pedersoli have metric threads on their plugs, aftermarket plugs are standard and factory plugs are very difficult to impossible to obtain. So that (could) require totally rebreaching the rifle, plus the cost of the lock and new plug - again, cost may be a factor.

If it was made by a one man/woman shop or homemade, it may be as simple as swapping a plug and lock.

(wandering a bit as I think)

You may also have to alter the inlet for the tang, plug and lock unless it was a factory gun that came in "both flavours" such that you simply swap one part for the other.

So, I'm back to "it depends" - if you post up what you have you can get some "specific" advice as to how, or how much it would be...

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good reply. He does need to tell us what he has before a good answer can be supplied. As you say, many/most of the Spanish/Italian guns are not meant to be fooled with. To convert pretty much means a rebuild. And that is expensive. Buying a new flintlock rifle is the most prudent route to go in that case.

 

[nkbj]

There was a thread on the forum (oh, or was it another forum...) a few years ago that had pictures of doing it. Milling off the side, drilling and tapping for a vent liner.

 

[mooman76]

Usually it is not that difficult if you can get a lock that closely matches but like others have said it is usually more costly that it is worth. better to buy one already in flint. You don't want to buy a cheap flint "lock" either or it may not be very dependable.

That said I converted a CVA about 25 years ago. I' haven't shot it much though and it wasn't cheap to covert.

 

[Hookj42]

Thanks so much for the advice. The rifle I was thinking of doing this to is a 45 cal Spanish import. (Sold by CVA?) I got it cheap from a friend who bought it at auction. So I am not familiar with its history. I have cleaned it up, refinished the stock, cleaned up the bore, and removed every spot of rust. The percussion action had about a 3/8" extended vent with a stainless nipple on it that threads into the side of the barrel. To convert it I would copy the lock plate, fitting flint parts to it and plug the large vent hole with a center drilled vent plug.

But you raised a concern that I didn't know about. Why would the breach plug need to be replaced?

 

[mooman76]

I didn't replace mine. The thing you call an extended vent is called a powder drum. I had to make a vent liner out of a bolt cut off. No internet to speak of back then and I couldn't find one with metric threads. But it was 25-30 years ago.

The Spanish M/Ls were made and marketed to allot of different companies. CVA and traditions were just a couple of those. Sounds like you know what you are doing but it may be cheaper to buy a new or used lock rather than fit all the parts. Traditions had the same parts as the CVA/Jukars so they were interchangeable. That's how I got mine. I don't know about now. Search for Deercreek. They sell of the old CVA parts.

 

[hawkeye2]

Complete CVA flintlock assemblies are often available on the online auctions.

 

[pargent]

It is easy if you can do basic mechanical stuff .read this Topic #295033 CVA restock :thumbsup:

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.

To give you an idea of what's inside your rifles breech, take a look at this picture.

It might not be exactly the same as yours but it's probably close.



Notice, the drum should not be removed.
Replacement drums are different.

That said, if you remove the exposed area of the drum, you should be able to drill out the little hole with a suitable tap drill size for a 1/4-28 thread**, buy a vent liner with a 1/4-28 thread on its outside and screw the liner into the hole.

That leaves you with trying to find a lock.

As for copying the existing lock plate and trying to build all of the parts you would need to make a flintlock, forget it.
I've assembled quite a few flintlocks from kits and there is no way I would try to actually build one from scratch.

Notice in this Track of the Wolf link, L&R lock company makes a replacement flint lock for the CVA.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/759/1

Yes, it's expensive but it is a good lock and it will work much better than anything you could build from scratch.

Now, for the bottom line, as they say.

Be aware that you will end up with a CVA flintlock that's not worth much more than what you started with if you ever decide to sell it.

If you can live with that, go ahead and spend the money and enjoy working on your own rifle.

** If the existing hole is larger than a #3 (.213 diameter) drill bit (the tap drill for a 1/4-28 thread) you will need to use a 5/16-24 thread vent liner with a letter I (.272) tap drill.

 

[Hookj42]

That's very good information thank you very much. I did remove my powder drum, and it is not shaped as the one in the article you posted. It was flush with the inside diameter of the bore and was drilled and tapped in the actual barrel, and was not a part of the breach plug.

My rifle is indeed a Jukar from Spain, I paid $100.00 for it and I knew when I began to refinish it that I would not be increasing its value much, if at all.

Knowing that there might be a replacement lock out there might send me in a different direction, but I am still thinking of making some of my own parts. A bunch of salvage parts where I would only have to remake the hammer might be a good alternative.

Thanks all for your input, but I still want to know why one would need to replace the breach plug when converting back to flintlock from percussion? Anyone?

 

[necchi]

It was flush with the inside diameter of the bore and was drilled and tapped in the actual barrel, and was not a part of the breach plug.

No, it's not "part of" the breech plug it helps hold it in,, it's part of that style of breech.
Look at the picture again. The bolster goes "through" the breech plug and holds it in,, they kind of cheat that way and if it's modified your breech may not hold under pressure. It's a quick cheap way to secure the breech plug.

converting back to flintlock from percussion?

Your rifle never was a flintlock, it was made to be a percussion, so your not changing it back.
You won't make a lock from spare parts, the basic lock plate is different because it has a "pan" and "frizzen",, the lock plate and pan need to be tight to the barrel specifically, if it's not then powder from the pan get's between the lock and barrel and will blow the lock off the gun when the charge goes off,, you need a different lock.
Here's what one guy did to make his barrel ready for a "Flint Lock";

You'll need a drill.
I would never do this,, I'd buy a different barrel for the gun that is factory designed for flint lock.
I wouldn't even try the modification,, I'd just save my money and but a flintlock rifle and then have two guns.

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

You should never mess with a perfectly functioning rifle, as you would just be opening up a can of worms.

Build or buy a new rifle.

It is far too late for you to go back now anyways. You will soon get to the point of not even knowing how many black powder guns you own.

 

[Zonie]

Based on what your saying, your Juker pre-dates the patented CVA breech in the picture.

In that case, if the nipple just screwed into the side of the barrel and the inside end of the nipple stopped before it actually got into the bore, all you need to do to make the vent is to get a bolt with the same sized threads as the drum has.

The threads are most likely metric and most hardware stores have steel bolts with that type of threads on them.

I used this "cut off bolt" method to make a special vent hole for my flintlock Queen Anne pistol.

Follow this link to see how I did it
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/193295/post/263703/fromsearch/1/

 

[Hookj42]

Yes Obi-Won Connoli, it is far to late. I think my number of black powders is at 7, but I think I loaned one to a nephew to try, and there may be another one tucked back in the corner of the gun room behind the fishing poles.

Gentlemen, to be clear, this is an exercise in gunsmithing. This rifle will not be needed or depended on for hunting or survival. The exercise is to reverse engineer this historical progression of black powder from flintlock to percussion.

And to all you nay sayers out there who think that nobody could use an old percussion plate to make a flintlock plate; are you willing to put money on that?

 

[Hookj42]

Zonie,

Thank you, that was good information.

 

[Keb]

Years ago I changed a Siler mountain lock to flint by using parts from a small Siler flint lock. Fitting the pan to the plate was the most difficult part of the conversion. The rest was simple transferring & tapping holes in the mountain lock plate.
Images are reference only. I had to photoshop these sample images. I did this conversion back in the 80's and I've no images of the end result.
This is a Siler mountain lock. It only comes in percussion.

This is a small Siler flint lock:

This is what I ended up with:

 

[54ball]

Gentlemen, to be clear, this is an exercise in gunsmithing. This rifle will not be needed or depended on for hunting or survival. The exercise is to reverse engineer this historical progression of black powder from flintlock to percussion.

And to all you nay sayers out there who think that nobody could use an old percussion plate to make a flintlock plate; are you willing to put money on that?

Honestly you have an unusual project in mind. Much of the "naysayers" were assuming you simply wanted a flint rifle so they offered the easiest path.

As far as converting percussion, Yes this is done and many times, unfortunately so. Many original percussion rifles have been "enhanced" by converting them to flint. A great deal of history has been lost in the process.

Sometimes it was done many years ago to flint conversions with percussion locks because a suitable flint lock plate was not unavailable. Sometimes it was unfortunately done to historic percussion rifles, some built new as percussion with modified plated flint plates. These old rifles appear to be flint but never were. Many of these modern day conversions are so poor they will not work well or at all but they are now " valuable flintlocks" :shake: .

There is historical interest in these type rifles. Present day conversions to originals by some who try to "enhance value" leave a bad taste in the mouth for students and collectors of these fine rifles. So you may not get much support from them.

There is so much to the art of building a fine longrifle, the lock is just a tiny part of the overall project. With all the investment of time tools and skill it's hard for a builder to understand why someone would want to take an inferior percussion lock like a Jukar and covert it to, in the end, an inferior Jukar flintlock.

If you have the skills, time or desire to make one of these a viable good flintlock, you have the skill time and desire to build a very good one, either from scratch or from an assemblers kit. There is so much time involved why not do it all up right with good quality parts?

This could be good practice I guess, but if it were me, I would either build a complete lock from scratch (not easy and requires a mountain of research not to mention the actual skill in metal work) or a lock parts set(that still requires a mountain research and metal work).

 

[necchi]

And to all you nay sayers out there who think that nobody could use an old percussion plate to make a flintlock plate; are you willing to put money on that?

No, pretty much anybody can bubba gun part together.
With no rude intention,, there is gunsmithing,, and there are hacks,, bring out the 120v mig welder, a car wheel forge and a belt sander and `viola,, a new lock,,

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

I agree with Necchi and 54ball on this one. While I can appreciate your enthusiasm...your question is usually the type one asks when they are in way over their head on something. You stand a good chance of ruining a perfectly good rifle at best, and creating a deathtrap at worst. Also, practice on things that are within your skill set and use a completely roached out pile of junk that you got for almost nothing.

Perhaps start off by purchasing this book:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-GGC

Then move on to progressively more challenging kit builds, scratch builds, and probably some seminars and training classes mixed in.

Good luck!