Correct barrol length of Tulle?

[Ed Oamar]

What is the correct length of a French type D fusil? All I can find today are 42" but saw one made about 20 years ago that was 46", anyone know what the originals were?

 

[tg]

In the post title it asks for the Tulle barrel length and the body of the post asks for type D fusil. Bouchard s writings suggests that about 44 1/2 inch is what the hunting guns from Tulle had at least around 1720-40, I do not recall anything specific about barrel lengths of the guns made from 1720 on which had the type "D" furniture,these could have been made at Leige or a number of other armouries, if they were trdae guns they would not have come from Tulle. I suspect it varied from 42" to over 48" or whatever the particular batch was contracted for, be they guns for the Indian trade or hunting guns. Mike or Okwaho may have some more info.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have "most of" a original "Type D" and it has a 47" 20 bore barrel Oct/rnd straight taper no swamp. I ought to get off my duff and get some pictures of that thing... hotoSmile:

 

[Ed Oamar]

I have just started playing with flintlocks and reenacting. We(my wife and I) have picked a time(1763) and place(Detroit) that we want to be from. We may not go as far as Juried reenactment but feel that as we are just starting, lets be as correct as we can. I found a report by "Doc" Shaffer 3-22-01, The Fusil in New France. In that report, it said in 1749 there were Saint-Etienne guns with 4ft and 3ft 8in. barrels and Tulle hunting guns, I think that guns made in Tulle could have been rifled or smoothbore that is why I said Fusil. I am just trying to find out what is juried correct and then someone that can or does build them. If finding a PC correct French smoothbore is too much of a problem then I might go with something British. I am having fun looking and learning about flinters and this time period and hope to enjoy many campfires in the years to come.

 

[tg]

I is unlikely that the guns from Tulle were rifled at that time in history, it is possiblt to get a pretty good "replica"ench fusil of the first half of the 18th century, Davis offers a parts set of a fusil with type D furniture and a 48" barrel I believe, depending on which lock is used it may needsome cosmetic work. if you want one of the guns made at Tulle with the extreme stck shape"Pied de vache" TOW has a parts set with 44" barrel that will get you real close if some minor cosmetic work is done to the lock that comes with it.the first gun could be a trade gun a "fin" or fine gun if I recall, this being a gun a bit more spruced up than an "ordinare" ordinary gun, the latter comming from Tulle would noy be a trade gun but would be sold/used as a hunting gun or Milice weapon. both of these parts sets will give you a very close replica of the guns they represent, much better than any others on the market now, If choosing the hunting gun from Tulle the name "Tulle" in one of several styles should appear on the gun, generay on the lockplate.I suggest these two if you are serious about getting as PC/HC as possible, there is another source which uses originals as patterns for their parts but have heard stories aboput long waits, this would be 'The Riffle Shoppe" Bouchards book is a help when building the 44" barreled gun from TOW as following the plans is not the best way to go variations are minor but just as well do it right if you are hat far along. either of the two guns mentioned above will give you a nice replica level french fusil/hunting gun, there are many builders on this forum who could do these parts sets correctly and produce a fine period French fusil, do be cautious if some builders try to steer you away from the basic detail that we have documented on this type of guns, many fudge a bit to make use of what parts they have on hand, good luck, hope you find a set of parts that will provide what you are looking for, and enjoy the joutney. PS try a plain vent hole about 5/64 coned a bit from the inside, works very well and adds a lot of HC/PC these guns. This is a gun made from the TOW parts set with Walnut stock, 44" barrel, it was a bit dark so I reworked it and it is now somewhat lighter than the pic shows.These will probably come in under 7 1/2 lbs with the .62 barrel, less with the .66 and just under 8 lbs with the .58. it shoots great and comes to shoulder and eye like gracefully.

 

[Ed Oamar]

I would like to portray an older French/Canadan trader. I think he would want a good gun that would not attract to much intrest from the indians he would trade with. As me building one from a kit, I would screw it up. I will have to purchase the kit and find someone that is familiar with these French smoothbores and have them will build it for me. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

 

[B. Miller]

These are not cheap but Center Mark makes both a finished rifle and kit. The Log Cabin Shop sells them. I hope this gets you there to the fusil page.
http://www.logcabinonline.com/index1.html

 

[tg]

Unless things have changed the above mentioned suppliers do not use a barrel and possibly a lock that is correct for these guns they may work with you and special order barrels and custom make a stock to fit, the ones I mentioned are the only ones at present that offer a "correct" parts set as a standard item.

 

[Okwaho]

I have just started playing with flintlocks and reenacting. We(my wife and I) have picked a time(1763) and place(Detroit) that we want to be from. We may not go as far as Juried reenactment but feel that as we are just starting, lets be as correct as we can. I found a report by "Doc" Shaffer 3-22-01, The Fusil in New France. In that report, it said in 1749 there were Saint-Etienne guns with 4ft and 3ft 8in. barrels and Tulle hunting guns, I think that guns made in Tulle could have been rifled or smoothbore that is why I said Fusil. I am just trying to find out what is juried correct and then someone that can or does build them. If finding a PC correct French smoothbore is too much of a problem then I might go with something British. I am having fun looking and learning about flinters and this time period and hope to enjoy many campfires in the years to come.

I guess it's myth busting time in Tennessee as to French trade guns as well as Tulle guns.

First:the term Fusil pronounced Fuzee in French referred to any longarm with a flintlock generated firing mechanism as opposed to matchlocks.The French usually referred to matchlocks as Mousquets and that term.The term Fuzee included flintlocks,snaphaunces,and wheelocks.The term Doglock,almost never used as pertaining to French arms, meant "ONLY"a dog catch or safety mechanism found primarily on English and a few European arms.

Second:Tulle contracted with the King through the Ministry de la Marine {1691-1741} to produce three types of arms;
1. Military arms: Fuzees ordinaire{common} and grenadier for the Compagnes Franche {incorrectly referred to as French Marines}operating as land troops under the Ministry de la Marine.These like the hunting fuzees are indentified by contract date rather than model nos. as was the case with regular French land troop arms.
1. Buccaneer Fuzees which seemed to be meant mostly for shipboard use and in the Indies
3. Fuzees/ de chasse{muskets for hunting}which were intended for white use and occasionally as gifts for selected Indians.These Tulle hunting muskets with their varients WERE NOT intended as trade guns per se.They were generally,but not always, iron mounted and some were brass mounted.I do not know of any Tulle guns or for that manner any French guns with rifling being used in New France. There were some rifled carbines{?} carried by elite troops attached to the King but I doubt any of these were used in New France.

3. In 1968 T.M.Hamilton came out with his first book,"Early French Trade Guns: 1625-1775"Here he began to list his archaeological recoveries by letter designations. He listed Types A-P and R. Since he was interested in trade guns there was and has continued to be very few references to Tulle guns in his books.This is not to say that there were not Fuzees de chasse in the fur trade.Fuzees de chasse were being made by St. Etienne and other manufacturers including Liege for inclusion in the fur trade.In 1980 Hamilton came out with "Colonial Frontier Guns"which was sort of an overview of archaeological recoveries and emphasis was placed upon Types C,D,and G. Of these three types the Type G guns now correctly termed "Carolina Guns"were English trade guns and the other two are trade guns manufactured by several makers including St.Etienne and Liege as well as numerous other manufacturers and sent to New France.Tulle lost its contract in 1741 and became a Royal Armory in 1777 so it is not inconceivable that trade guns were made there after 1741.At the present time the best kit on the market is the Fine Fusil kit{ a trade gun} by R E Davis which should not be confused with their "Type D kit.In fact it is the ONLY kit that I can recommend and is very close to my early brass mounted trade gun which was probably made in Liege.

Finally: there was NEVER a Type C D,or G gun produced in the 17th through the 19th centuries.These are strictly mid 20th century archaeologigal designations and it wasn't until about the 1960's and 70's that this Type C,D, and G gun business came into existence as a ploy to sell guns to reenactors.Russel Bouchard began researching and writing on French guns and Tulle guns in particular. Unfortunately only two of his efforts are in English, but that's better than nothing.I think I have rambled on enough and I hope it helps to clear away some of the cobwebs. As always I welcome any responsible opposing comment.
Tom Patton

:bow: :v :thumbsup:

 

[Ed Oamar]

Thank you, for all the history of French smoothbores. It is nice to ask questions and have so many people be willing to help. I found what seems to be a sorce of information but the books are in French. The author is Russel Bouchard, 2 of his works are (english spelling) Tulle rifles in New France and The Guns of trading post Pontchatrain 1660-1760. I don't know just how much information is in them as I can't read French but I thought I might pass this info. on.

 

[Mike Brooks]

These are strictly mid 20th century archaeologigal designations and it wasn't until about the 1960's and 70's that this Type C,D, and G gun business came into existence as a ploy to sell guns to reenactors.

More like the mid 80's to early 90's. Up untill then the only "Trade gun" parts being manufactured were being offered by Gostomski with his North West gun. Old Allegheny Arms was also offering a Fusil De Chasse gun in the early 80's, most of them unfortunately stocked in curly maple. :shake: It is really surprising with all the interest in these early trade guns that more correct guns haven't been put on the market. Probably due to an uneducated consumer relying on a manufactures marketing propaganda to get their guns sold with incorrect parts.

 

[Okwaho]

What is the correct length of a French type D fusil? All I can find today are 42" but saw one made about 20 years ago that was 46", anyone know what the originals were?

To clarify my post I need to discuss the barrel lengths of "French Type D fusils". There are the Tulle marine muskets as well as the Buccaneer muskets but they are not germane to a discussion of hunting muskets{de chasse} or trade guns.To repeat, Tulle DID NOT per se make a trade gun and there was NO Type C and D gun as a distinct arm.Hamilton's classification of Types C and D referred to archealogical recoveries of mostly trade gun parts which were made by a myriad of makers including ST. Etienne and Liege.It follows then that there is a myriad of barrel lengths. These trade guns appear to have barrel lengths from the mid to high 40"'s
with some even higher.The Tulle hunting muskets{de chasse}prior to the 1729 and 1734 contracts seem to have been around the mid to high 40" lengths or higher.The 1729 and 1734 contracts specified a barrel length of 43.2" for the Tulle de chasse guns but there were some slight variations here.{Russel Bouchard "The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741"} The barrel length of 42" so favored by suppliers is a modern innovation to facilitate easier production of standardized barrel lengths.
Again and I hate to repeat myself, these so called Type C and D guns DID NOT exist as distinct types of guns in the 17th through the 19th centuries.Types C and D were archealogical terms along with Types A-P and R used by T.M.Hamilton to define archealogical recoveries. To Hamilton a complete gun was the barrel,lock,and mounts recovered together and with heavily rusted iron components which makes some identifications difficult..These trade guns were for the most part brass mounted although some have been noted in iron.It is indeed unfortunate that suppliers and reenactors cannot seem to differentiate between the Tulle hunting muskets and trade guns{including some de chasse guns manufactured by St. Etienne}when referring to French guns, I have more and more come to believe that many of these brass mounted trade guns were in fact manufactured in Liege as well as in France."Tunica Treasure" by Jeffrey P. Brain and "Firearms on the Frontier" by T. M. Hamilton show a number of brass mounts for trade guns and many of these are also found in "Colonial Frontier Guns" by Hamilton.Regrettably there are very few complete {including wood}examples of the trade guns extant. They have been largely overlooked by reenactors who mistakenly seem to believe that there are no guns except French Fusils de chasse.Virtually all the kits with pre carved stocks show so called Types C and D with Germanic Jaeger locks. R E Davis does offer a Fine Fusil kit {not to be confused with their Type D kit} with a correct 48" barrel.We laid one of these kits along side with my late 1730's Liegeoise trade gun and they were virtually identical.This is a fine kit although the 48" barrel is a bit heavy due to its walls being thicker than the old guns which have extremely thin walls.
It is also unfortunate that in order to illustrate a point on trade guns that many of us are forced to use the incorrect Type C and D terminology before readers will understand what we are talking about.I guess I've said enough here but I think these points need to be made.

As always I welcome responsible opposing comment.
Tom Patton :bow: :v :thumbsup:

 

[Mike Brooks]

The Types "C" & "D" just reflect parts that were made in different time periods. The so called "C" were earlier, 1680 to 1720's and the so called "D" were made from the 1720's to 1760. The 1720's through 1740's parts could probably be called transitional as the style change from early to late was gradual, not abrupt.

 

[Okwaho]

Mike,I agree with you and wish to add to what I have already said. One writer has referred to Bouchard and "rifles" These guns were smootbores and it should be noted that neither France nor England had a rifle culture like the Germanic states.
Tom Patton

 

[tg]

I would just add that with some effort one can make a pretty good fusil with the cows foot buttstock from the TOW parts set with the 44" barrel, a lot of wood needs to be removed and the lock cleaned up but it comes closer than any other source of this type except for The Riffle Shoppe, most folks call this style of gun a "Tulle" which is not a type of gun (like the C&D thing)if it is intended to represent a hunting gun from the Tulle armoury the Tulle name should appear on it, and this type from Tulle would not be a trade gun as mentioned above.Nice post on the French guns and their correct and incorrect nomenclature Tom, hope some of it sticks to the wall.

 

[Okwaho]

Gene, Thanks for the kind words One can only hope but in the interim I will continue to stockpile pearls.
Tom Patton :bow: :v :thumbsup:

 

[Okwaho]

TG, you are correct on the Tulle name being on the gun usually the lock.Early guns were usually marked "TVLLE" and the later guns marked "TULLE". There are some other marks and Bouchard shows some of them.I am restoring a very nice Fusil de chasse which is missing the lock. The gun is identifiable as a product of the Tulle manufactury with the presence of a small circular cartouche on the rear top flat of the barrel with the letters M P T for MichelPaufile,Tvlle/Tulle.Bouchard illustrates this mark as No.I on page 44.,"The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741"It is the mark of either Michel Paufile Sr.{d.1698} or Jr. {d.1715?}.Another way of identifying a Tvlle/Tulle gun is the mark A Tvlle or A Tulle which although usually found on the lock is sometimes found on the barrel.My gun is missing the lock but it does have the M P T carouche on the rear of the barrel.I hope this helps.
Tom Patton.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Not sure if there was a standard for barrel lengths bewixt the different French flintlock smoothies of the era.

My fusil de chase would not pass a juried exam due to the lock and 46 inch Getz swamped barrel.(?) I never tried to duplicate a historical piece, but for me it is my favorite and one great smoothbore which I use all the time.

 

[Okwaho]

Not sure if there was a standard for barrel lengths bewixt the different French flintlock smoothies of the era.

My fusil de chase would not pass a juried exam due to the lock and 46 inch Getz swamped barrel.(?) I never tried to duplicate a historical piece, but for me it is my favorite and one great smoothbore which I use all the time.

I don't know what lock you were using in your Fusil de chasse nor do I know anything about the barrel described as a "46 in. swamped Getz barrel"I would suggest that you read "The Fusil de Tulle in New France 1691-1741" by Russel Bouchard.PP.22-28 and 34-35.He divides the hunting muskets {Fusils de chasse}into two periods; "Part II:The Early Guns,1691-1729"{PP.22-28} and "Part III:1729-1741"{PP. 32-35}

Tulle's contracts with the King for the early period referred to various specifications for the hunting muskets including barrel lengths.The barrels varied as to length{see Bouchard}. I have one which I date from this period{1791-1729} with a 47" barrel.The hunting muskets manufactured under the contracts of 1729 and 1734 appeared to be very rare according to Bouchard{1980}and the five muskets he located in Canada reflected a barrel length of 43.02 inches/110 centimeters.Tulle's contract with the King through his Ministry de la Marine expired in 1741 and guns were then purchased from other sources including probably Tulle and more particularly St. Etienne.

I have not,however,seen any references to "swamped" barrels on French guns such as are seen on Germanic and occasionally English guns.I have seen barrels from French guns which I believe were manufactured in Liege and which had tapered barrels with a slight but noticeable flare very near the muzzle.

As to the lock I can only say that there doesn't seem to be any standard of which I am familiar which are correct for French Fusils de chasse The old guns have locks approximately 6"x 1 & 1/8".The R E Davis Tulle fusil de chasse flint lock sold by TOW does need a fair amount of cleaning up but can be used.I would like to see it a little longer and a bit longer{5.63" to 6"}and a bit wider{1" to 1 1/8"}. There are,of course, those so called Type C and D trade guns with the R E Davis Germanic Jaeger locks but that's a whole other ball game.

You didn't specify whether or not your gun was rejected in the jurying process and if in fact it was rejected then on what grounds was that rejection based ?
Tom Patton :v :hmm:

 

[Ed Oamar]

Where can I find copys of Russel Bouchard's books in English? I found a list of books but they were all in French. He has one on the guns at Ft. Detroit that I would like to look at.