Coyotes

[Mattole]

Yeah it takes time, you want them out of the traps asap. I saw where someone is coming out with a video that shows the techniques of laying sets through out the weekend. Its supposed to help manage the time it takes to just trap on the weekend. I wont lay a set unless I can check it in a maximum of 48 hours for dogs and 24 hours for a water set. You know down here in Alabama you don't have to be afraid of much like up north where them "monsters be" I would like to reccommend a book THE TIGER BY JOHN VAILLANT. We have all saw the old maps where it said, "Here there be monsters." Check out this book or its synopsis and think how it would be if we faced such as this when we hunted. Enough to raise the hackles on this here boy. I know some of you roam around where ol'Ephraim lives, but dang, even the old griz rarley hunts a man. Where some of those russian boys are hunting there truly be monsters.

The book "The Tiger" was indeed a great read! I did have the honor of being actively hunted by a griz on one memorable occasion in Alaska years ago, and I survived to tell the tale only because it was a grizzly seeking my flesh and not a tiger (meaning, I was being hunted by a creature that did not have the eyesight and the intelligence and cunning of a tiger)...

 

[Timothy Gregory]

We have the big ugly ones. we have to do something instead of giving up and just showing pictures of rabbits and deer to our grand kids instead of the real thing. Larry

I agree. I also think that we in the East have more coydogs than actual western coyotes. They are bigger and more aggressive. To the gentleman referring to Big Bear, I was in the Marine Corps in 1988 and we deployed a radar unit to Big Bear. We had alerts and warnings about straying off alone or in the dark because of the coyotes. Beautiful country though.

 

[George]

In the ny study the researchers concluded that yes many of the carcasses of adult deer were injured previously but that some were definitley taken down by coyotes.

The links at the site won't work with a Mac, which I use, so I've been slow in making my way through the study. It does seem to be a well done study, and it will be interesting to see what the final conclusions are when it's finished. The interim reports seem to generally agree with what biologists have been saying for a long time.

1. Only less than 10% of deer carcasses fed on by coyotes were killed by coyotes.

2. All the deer killed by coyotes were previously injured, and the researches speculated that this was usually the case. You say the researchers said some were "definitely taken down by coyotes". I'm sure that is true, but I didn't see where they said that in the reports.

3. Fawns are heavily fed on during the first weeks of life.

The scientists put forward a proposed conclusion:

"These observations lead to the hypotheses that predation by coyotes may not limit deer populations to a lower carrying capacity (through predation on adults) but may slow population recovery following a decline (through predation on fawns), and further that the structure of a coyote population may dictate total predation levels."

So, they don't believe deer populations were lowered by coyotes or that adult deer are frequently killed by coyotes unless some preexisting condition of injury or disease makes them vulnerable,

Other studies have shown that predators take the young, the old, the injured or diseased and the less capable individuals of the prey populations. It's the way predator/prey relationships work out, regardless of the species involved. It's called the biological arms race and has been going on for millions of years.

Biologically this is good for the deer herds in the long run. Both predator and prey thrive when they are in balance, because each benefits from the presence of the other.

Spence

 

[Skylinewatcher]

DaaaaGumm Mattole, I hate to know ole Ephraim was a gunning for me. I sometimes think about things like that, we don't worry over much around here except the cottonmouth, or a rattlesnake. Most of the fellars around here strut around thinking they are the mighty hunter an all. You take that big dog in the picture above, if there was a critter running around northwest alabama like that, you northern boys could come down here and purchase hunting outfits on the real cheap. Many of these fellars would stop hunting and build walls around their homes. I hate to say and by no means am I trying to place myself above another man, but dang, the way some folks are starting to hunt just sours my milk. I had a gamewarden friend tell me he had to bring some fellars low on account they were missing everything they shot at with $3,000 rifles and he caught'em running deer down with $10,000 ATVs. Now, thats just plain shameful. But if those same men that ship themselves in here every deer season had to worry about ol'Ephraim or one of those wolves... well things would be different, alot different. :grin:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

We have the big ugly ones. we have to do something instead of giving up and just showing pictures of rabbits and deer to our grand kids instead of the real thing. Larry

I agree. I also think that we in the East have more coydogs than actual western coyotes. They are bigger and more aggressive. To the gentleman referring to Big Bear, I was in the Marine Corps in 1988 and we deployed a radar unit to Big Bear. We had alerts and warnings about straying off alone or in the dark because of the coyotes. Beautiful country though.

One of the reasons Big Bear has so many coyotes is they wouldn't let us kill them. Too many tree hugger's in that area.
As a consequence. The people who came there for vacation lost their dogs and cats.

They would put up flyers in the post office..."Has anybody seen my Fluffy?"

I didn't have the heart to tell them the coyotes ate their Fluffy.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Years ago when I first got out of the military, I lived with my folks for the first few months. My dad asked me to drive his '47 Willys to the dump to get rid of the garbage. They lived about 8,500 ft. It was four miles to the dump. I drove and dumped the trash, and when I got back in the truck, it wouldn't start. No cellphones. I had to walk back to the house in the dark. At that time the area was sparsley populated. I got about halfway back, and heard a gosh awful screeching. I started to run, but it wouldn't have done any good. I ran just a little while when one of the neighbors picked me up, and said that he saw a mountain lion in his headlights just before picking me up. :shocked2:

 

[Skylinewatcher]

Just go out and find some coyote scat with fur in it the same color as fluffy and tell them the truth about poor old fluffy. Its harsh but you have to be that way with some people. I had an old redbone that liked to chase my neighbors chickens that would try to peck at his food. Never went into the yard only chased the ones that came to his food bowl. One day that ole boy came over with his little .22 roaring mad. he claimed my 13 year old redbone done killed 3 of his chickens. He said he planned to shoot my dog. I come off MY porch and told him if that dog come up hurt I would wade into his liver. Run him back across the street. I knew a fox was hanging about and I knew that durn fox got those chickens. I simmered a few days and I let him simmer a few. I called him and asked him if he was still having missing chickens and he said yes. I asked him if I could come over and he let me. I carried him out along a pasture fence that bordered his yard and showed him the fox scat with feathers in it. I asked him if he thought bellar (my dog) would leave such as that and he said no. I then told him about my thoughts on a fox. I even trapped it for him and opened it up to show him the last of his lost chickens. I had to do all of that to get him to believe. Some folks just wont see whats right in front of them until you show them.

 

[Skylinewatcher]

DADGUM, WOOLIES. I remember grandma and pap talking about "painters" when they were growing up around these hollars here. I also saw a show on discovery channel about leapords, I think, starting up into texas. From what I've read those can be some mean cats.

 

[longcruise]

I also saw a show on discovery channel about leapords, I think, starting up into texas. From what I've read those can be some mean cats.

Those are Jaguars and they look a lot like a leopard. They are a Mexican-central american-south american cat. They are pretty dang big!

They are not just starting to come up into Texas but historically were there in numbers in the old days. Also in AZ. When I was a kid in the '50's there was an article in one of the rod and gun mags about a jaguar hunt in AZ. They used dogs and there was the pic of the jaguar to boot. It stuck in my mind!

In reading one of the mtn man journals (maybe Ruxton?) there is a good description of a cat seen while on a hunting trip in north central colorado. Woulda been right around just west of present day Loveland (Mike Brines' back yard!). The description fit a jaguar to a "T". :shocked2:

 

[doulos]

Yes your right Spence I misread. I have a terrible habit of skim reading.

However Id like to see how they determined cause of death from half eaten carcasses. 37% of the adult deer carcasses frequented by coyoetes the cause of death could not be determined.

Id like them to go further with this study. They seem to have lost a lot of coyotes (from 50 down to 7).

And Id like to see the data from this winter with all the snow in some areas to see if this increases the predation.

A quote from the from the study
"These observations lead to the hypotheses that predation by coyotes may not limit deer populations to a lower carrying capacity (through predation on adults) but may slow population recovery following a decline (through predation on fawns), and further that the structure of a coyote population may dictate total predation levels. However, deeper snow or more severe winters than we observed may alter deer vulnerability to predation and, consequently, alter the effects of coyote predation on deer populations."

I also am not sure why they think only the population recovery of a herd after a decline would be affected by all the fawn predation. That doesent make sense to me. They made it sound like it has no effect on the total population. Which doesent make sense. It just lowers the fawn survival rate quite a bit in some areas.

All in all though a interesting study.

 

[Skylinewatcher]

Thats right it was Jaguars, they caught pictures of them on trail cames. I tell you one thing, if I come across one of those things in my foot holds you could track me all the way home by following the peach pits. :shocked2:

 

[August West]

However Id like to see how they determined cause of death from half eaten carcasses. 37% of the adult deer carcasses frequented by coyoetes the cause of death could not be determined.

I think one of the major reasons for the coyote explosion in GA is road kill. A few years back there were sections of road where you couldn't drive a mile with out a carcass laying beside the road, that is a lot of meat that is easy and free for a not so choosy predator. Chris

 

[bucktales]

I've been trying to stay out of this one, but feel that I need to share some of my humble observations.
I don't hate coyotes, but I have a respect for them, especially Easterns. Since I started hunting them in mid-late winter, I found they are truly a worthy animal and do have their place.
On the other side of the coin, I don't believe everything that the "experts" claim to know about them. They DO hunt and kill in packs. In the Northeast at least, from my observations and the amount of dog scat full of deer hair Ive seen, I believe deer is their main food source, especially in Winter months.
I hunted Nat. Forest ground in Vt. for 25 yrs. and had an episode where a pack of 8 "shadowed me for half a day.

Another time, we glassed 4 does on the edge of a field right at dusk. Had 2 feet of snow with a thick crust and another inch of powder on top of that. All 4 does looked "unwounded".
The next morning, we saw the results of 5 coyotes(who easily traveled on top of the crust) and what they did to one of the does. They ran her over an open field, brought her down 3 times, and trapped her on a small island in a brook.
2 dogs broke off and got on the opposite bank, cutting her off.
They then proceeded to kill and partially eat her at the waters edge.
Picture quality is poor as I took a picture of a picture ,but you get the idea.
Not a pretty sight, as the snow told the story.

 

[August West]

Did you sit over that kill? Good way to thin those ones out, a local rancher would always give me a call if he had a dead cow or calf and I'd almost always get a couple. Chris

 

[bucktales]

No, not this one as I ran out of time.
I generally don't shoot them if I'm targeting deer, but that's a very loose rule for me. More times than not, I'll get into my hunting ground after an hours drive and find that the dogs were /are in the area. Most times they push deer around or out of an area I'm hunting and won't return for a few days.
I think you said it earlier in this thread regarding getting busted. No truer words are there.I always dabbled in off season coyote hunting but really got into it within the last 5 years. The learning curve is indeed steep.

 

[August West]

I always dabbled in off season coyote hunting but really got into it within the last 5 years. The learning curve is indeed steep.

You can probably tell from my posts but it is my favorite hunting. I lived in AZ for 6 years where I first caught the bug I called in and killed a lot of predators. I have video of a coyote coming in and sniffing my decoy, loads of fun. Believe it or not it is the only hunting I ever got my wife interested in, she don't shoot but she loves to come with me and see what comes in to the call and sometimes runs the video. Called in a lion one time with her with me she still gets excited talking about it. Chris

 

[Idaho Ron]

Did someone say something about Grizz?
This is a real picture not made up. The man in the picture is one of my good friends. He is a Taxidermist. I talked him into doing this picture. It was amazing. These are from Russia. Ron

 

[hoochiepapa]

I also saw a show on discovery channel about leapords, I think, starting up into texas. From what I've read those can be some mean cats.

Those are Jaguars and they look a lot like a leopard. They are a Mexican-central american-south american cat. They are pretty dang big!

They are not just starting to come up into Texas but historically were there in numbers in the old days. Also in AZ. When I was a kid in the '50's there was an article in one of the rod and gun mags about a jaguar hunt in AZ. They used dogs and there was the pic of the jaguar to boot. It stuck in my mind!

In reading one of the mtn man journals (maybe Ruxton?) there is a good description of a cat seen while on a hunting trip in north central colorado. Woulda been right around just west of present day Loveland (Mike Brines' back yard!). The description fit a jaguar to a "T". :shocked2:

:rotf:

 

[Idaho Ron]

Ron, is that the Frank Church in the back ground?
I was with another Ron there 2 years ago hunting Elk and the wolves had beaten down the population pretty hard.
Ed

Ed I don't think so. I heard that it was by Sun Valley. The FC is a Wilderness. That woman is standing on a road. Ron

 

[Pete Gaimari]

That's scary Ron. How tall is that guy?