Crazy Crow knife

[Trigger]

just an example. https://japaneseknifedirect.com/collections/bowie-knives

 

[Trigger]

I go back and forth between Japan and Germany it seems..

 

[fubar22]

So I am using this new knife in spite of any flaws with the assumption that originals back in the fur trade may have had imperfections too. So maybe I’m more period correct than not.
It holds an edge good. Starting to patina nice too.

View attachment 347987

View attachment 347988

View attachment 347989

So I am using this new knife in spite of any flaws with the assumption that originals back in the fur trade may have had imperfections too. So maybe I’m more period correct than not.
It holds an edge good. Starting to patina nice too.

View attachment 347987

View attachment 347988

View attachment 347989

Nice blade. Just keep using it and you'll get to a real nice patina in short order. Cut any fruit or veggie that has acid in it and you'll get there fast. It's actually unavoidable with a high-carbon blade.

The British flooded the American frontier with trade knives during the early 1800s. Some were fairly high quality, some cheap garbage that barely held an edge. The alloys they used would be considered inferior today because modern steel-making processes were still in their infancy. Designs resembled contemporary butcher knives more than the cool bowies and tactical blades popular today.

Remember that these things were treated primarily as tools, not fashion accessories, and took lots of hard use. Early 19th century blades recovered from archeological sites were often ground down to a fraction of their original size. You just didn't throw away tools that had any use left in them.

 

[Trigger]

Yea they all had the same salad knife getting off the boat..

The bowie knife was made here.. it's kinda one of few knife designs we have I thought.

It would not be hard just to change the handle of any production knife.

Other than the bowie knife.. we might have buck 110 folder. For an American knife. It's modern but at least it's ours.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Yup, my new everyday use belt knife.

 

[Jay Templin]

I don't know much about them but Id think they treated there knifes well back then.

I been looking at some Japanese knifes now..

That's a problem because that's a problem. Id say they have some nice mountain man knifes too.

A lot of the original trade knives were just iron, not steel at all. They were intended to be as cheap and crappy as traders could get away with.
Jay

 

[Trigger]

pos knife just to trade with the Natives.

Got it..

 

[Tanglefoot]

The blade shape you're referring to is the standard butcher knife shape. It was one of the most common in the Fur Trade and traded to the mountain men and Indians in large numbers. There are multiple examples in the Museum Of The Fur Trade.

 

[Trigger]

The boning knife like my vicronox blade example. I can't find good info on that.

Usually you search a knife you get its history..

And if it's 1945.. how do we not know who made it.

I just find that weird. Is it old. Is it modern.

 

[tenngun]

Cheap trade knifes were only cheap when compared to fine knifes and individual made knifes. Butchers/scaling knifes came to American fur at two dollars a dozen $.17 apiece and that was whole sale, out the door might double or triple, not a breaker but a dollar a day was good wages. In 1812 a private made a dime a day, a whale man could sail for three years to get two hundred when paid off. 17 centra could buy about twenty to fifty dollars of goods today
However fur companies often gave knifes for free

 

[Trigger]

green river knifes are 1840s

There kitchen knifes?

 

[Trigger]

I get why even today a blacksmith makes a big deal about the anvil I've noticed..

But yea maybe not easy to ship them around huh.

It would be easyer to make the ship full of junk knifes for us.

 

[tenngun]

green river knifes are 1840s

There kitchen knifes?

Essentially
Scalper, were in fact lightly curved skinning knifes. Butcher knifes were common, and by the time of Russel the regular butcher shape was common

 

[Trigger]

another goodie..

Caping knife. It's like a patch knife right but it's no way the same..

It's a unique blade. I have a cheap one and do want a nice one.. there nice

It's really falling modern to me. More so it's purpose.. but it's a handy useful blade.

Where that come from. Who when etc. I get nothing.

 

[Notchy Bob]

So I am using this new knife in spite of any flaws with the assumption that originals back in the fur trade may have had imperfections too. So maybe I’m more period correct than not.
It holds an edge good. Starting to patina nice too.

View attachment 347987

View attachment 347988

View attachment 347989

I think that eight-inch butcher knife is just right for @Omahkapi'si 's persona. I like to read the literature of the period, and not only trappers but soldiers and just about anybody else outfitting for a trip to the mountains in the early 19th century carried a butcher knife. You see it repeatedly in the accounts written by those who were there.

As noted in previous posts, these knives were cheap, but they were simple, sturdy, and functional tools. Neither Indians, trappers, or emigrants would buy junk. Despite their low price, the blades were ground smooth, without the forge scale and hammer marks that people now associate with period cutlery. Metallurgy had certainly not advance to the level we enjoy today, and several people who were present back then commented on the soft metal, which could be sharpened on a smooth river stone or with a file. Edwin Thompson Denig, who was the factor of Fort Union on the Upper Missouri, penned several ethnographical articles concerning the Indians he knew. This quote is from his monograph on the Assiniboine, republished in the 46th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology:



Comments concerning the most common knives on the plains are in about the middle of the page. While Denig described this as a "scalping knife" he referred to the "...soft steel blade about 8 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide, sharp on one edge, and with the point turned like a butcher knife." Other chroniclers of the period used the term "butcher knife" pretty frequently.

One cool thing about this knife from Crazy Crow is the trademark, in the form of a snake slithering over a horizontal line. As noted in the catalog description, this trademark is associated with a family of cutlers named Kitchin:



While Kitchin's period of operation (1860's) might be a little late for the pre-1840 "rendezvous era," the actual knives had not changed that much, and for an older fellow like Omahkapi'si who had outlasted the Shining Times but elected to stay in the mountains, it might be a good fit, after all. There were a number of men, old-time trappers, who did exactly that, enjoying the freedom of the hills until the end of their times. Roosevelt reported visiting one of them at the old fellow's camp in the 1880's. In any event, I would rather carry an authentically marked knife that is a bit "late" than have one of the fantasy knives that you see so often. This Kitchin knife from Crazy Crow is one of only two I know of in current production which have anything close to period correct markings. The other is the 19th century butcher knife from John Nowill of Sheffield. The Nowill butchers are available in several blade lengths, but this one is the eight-inch version pictured on the Bernal Cutlery website:



I had read Denig's piece on the Assiniboine years ago and determined to make a knife similar to the one in his description, using a Dexter-Russell eight-inch Green River blade blank. Here is the result, warts and all:



It is an eight inch butcher, and I even used period correct wood (pernambuco) for the haft, but there is a lot wrong with it. The pin spacing is wrong, and the pins should be a little larger in diameter. Also, the sharply beveled edges of the handle scales should have been more rounded. I didn't like the farby, modern etched trademark, so I put some effort into obliterating it by browning and buffing the blade. I would say very few original knives were totally unmarked, but I preferred no mark at all to the one that was on the blade.

We could nit-pick some other details on this Green River knife as well as on the John Nowill and Crazy Crow butchers. They may not be perfect representations of the knives of the period, but I think they are pretty good. And, like the originals, they don't cost that much in today's dollars. I think you can get a Green River blade blank for less than fifteen bucks, and the John Nowill butchers are selling for $40 and under, depending on blade length. Best of all, the Crazy Crow/Kitchin butcher which is the subject of this thread, is currently on sale for $22.52. I don't think you're going to beat that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Trigger]

I found modern ones.. same blade style. There a little pricey.

https://www.dlttrading.com/bark-river-modern-mountain-man

I don't know the store either or anything but I got lost looking at all the knife sharpening they had

 

[Trigger]

Old hickory.. there even less money.

I think even the boning knife is fine, they could have had one.. you know those butchers sharpening they wore those blade down to basically a boning knife.

 

[Omahkapi'si]

Outstanding info Notchy Bob. Thank you.

 

[Trigger]

I think that eight-inch butcher knife is just right for @Omahkapi'si 's persona. I like to read the literature of the period, and not only trappers but soldiers and just about anybody else outfitting for a trip to the mountains in the early 19th century carried a butcher knife. You see it repeatedly in the accounts written by those who were there.

As noted in previous posts, these knives were cheap, but they were simple, sturdy, and functional tools. Neither Indians, trappers, or emigrants would buy junk. Despite their low price, the blades were ground smooth, without the forge scale and hammer marks that people now associate with period cutlery. Metallurgy had certainly not advance to the level we enjoy today, and several people who were present back then commented on the soft metal, which could be sharpened on a smooth river stone or with a file. Edwin Thompson Denig, who was the factor of Fort Union on the Upper Missouri, penned several ethnographical articles concerning the Indians he knew. This quote is from his monograph on the Assiniboine, republished in the 46th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology:

View attachment 348670

Comments concerning the most common knives on the plains are in about the middle of the page. While Denig described this as a "scalping knife" he referred to the "...soft steel blade about 8 inches long and 1 1/2 inches wide, sharp on one edge, and with the point turned like a butcher knife." Other chroniclers of the period used the term "butcher knife" pretty frequently.

One cool thing about this knife from Crazy Crow is the trademark, in the form of a snake slithering over a horizontal line. As noted in the catalog description, this trademark is associated with a family of cutlers named Kitchin:

View attachment 348673

While Kitchin's period of operation (1860's) might be a little late for the pre-1840 "rendezvous era," the actual knives had not changed that much, and for an older fellow like Omahkapi'si who had outlasted the Shining Times but elected to stay in the mountains, it might be a good fit, after all. There were a number of men, old-time trappers, who did exactly that, enjoying the freedom of the hills until the end of their times. Roosevelt reported visiting one of them at the old fellow's camp in the 1880's. In any event, I would rather carry an authentically marked knife that is a bit "late" than have one of the fantasy knives that you see so often. This Kitchin knife from Crazy Crow is one of only two I know of in current production which have anything close to period correct markings. The other is the 19th century butcher knife from John Nowill of Sheffield. The Nowill butchers are available in several blade lengths, but this one is the eight-inch version pictured on the Bernal Cutlery website:

View attachment 348684

I had read Denig's piece on the Assiniboine years ago and determined to make a knife similar to the one in his description, using a Dexter-Russell eight-inch Green River blade blank. Here is the result, warts and all:

View attachment 348685

It is an eight inch butcher, and I even used period correct wood (pernambuco) for the haft, but there is a lot wrong with it. The pin spacing is wrong, and the pins should be a little larger in diameter. Also, the sharply beveled edges of the handle scales should have been more rounded. I didn't like the farby, modern etched trademark, so I put some effort into obliterating it by browning and buffing the blade. I would say very few original knives were totally unmarked, but I preferred no mark at all to the one that was on the blade.

We could nit-pick some other details on this Green River knife as well as on the John Nowill and Crazy Crow butchers. They may not be perfect representations of the knives of the period, but I think they are pretty good. And, like the originals, they don't cost that much in today's dollars. I think you can get a Green River blade blank for less than fifteen bucks, and the John Nowill butchers are selling for $40 and under, depending on blade length. Best of all, the Crazy Crow/Kitchin butcher which is the subject of this thread, is currently on sale for $22.52. I don't think you're going to beat that.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

Even better..

Ebay... Cheap. They look like all different.. they look good used.

 

[Trigger]

There nice.