CURIOUS ABOUT CONICALS

[JDBraddy]

Am fairly new to muzzleloading, less than a year now, have never used anything but PRB'S except mini's in .58cal P-53 musket. Have several T/C's and am curious about choosing/using conicals in them, especially in the smaller calibers .32cal, .36cal,.40cal.

Please educate me.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

They are very similar to a minie ball, but you won't find any made for a .40. For a .40 you'll have to get a custom mold made.

The advantage is the ease of loading, and in smaller calibers the better trajectory and more mass at impact.

The LEE company makes a variation known as the REAL bullet (Rifling Engraved At Loading) which means the band closest to the bullet nose is oversized, and the shooter swages that band of lead onto the rifling when the bullet is first applied to the muzzle. This ensures the rifling has engaged the projectile. Whether or not the spin that is imparted is enough to properly stabilize the projectile is another question. Unfortunately, the smallest mold for these bullets made is currently .45 caliber.

LD

 

[JDBraddy]

They are very similar to a minie ball, but you won't find any made for a .40. For a .40 you'll have to get a custom mold made.

The advantage is the ease of loading, and in smaller calibers the better trajectory and more mass at impact.

The LEE company makes a variation known as the REAL bullet (Rifling Engraved At Loading) which means the band closest to the bullet nose is oversized, and the shooter swages that band of lead onto the rifling when the bullet is first applied to the muzzle. This ensures the rifling has engaged the projectile. Whether or not the spin that is imparted is enough to properly stabilize the projectile is another question. Unfortunately, the smallest mold for these bullets made is currently .45 caliber.

LD

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 pistol bullet work in the .36cal? What about a .32-20 bullet in the .32cal.

 

[longcruise]

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 pistol bullet work in the .36cal? What about a .32-20 bullet in the .32cal.

My answer would be "probably". You would want to stay on the lighter shorter end of the spectrum for the 10mm. Stabilization is dependent upon bullet length. And, you would probably need a sizer.

For the 36, 9mm bullets are nominally 355 and the 357/38 usually cast at 358 or a bit larger. Again, you might need to size them.

I have shot 200 grain 452 in my tc 45 and they shot very well. They were sized to 451. 450 would have been better.

 

[tenngun]

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 pistol bullet work in the .36cal? What about a .32-20 bullet in the .32cal.

Those will be bigger then the bore, the .32 bullet is about .34 the .40 and 10mm are both bigger then .400

 

[SDSmlf]

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 work in the .36cal?

A big maybe with exceptions. You can size any (within reason) soft lead bullet to the diameter preferred (or even bump it up a few thousands) by your gun’s bore so they can be loaded, however, that doesn’t mean they will shoot accurately. Your gun’s depth of rifling, width of lands and rate of twist play into things.

For rifles less than 40 caliber (this is personal opinion) it is probably best to find the roundball load that shoots the most accurate and go with it, as I’ve found most traditional muzzleloaders in these calibers to be made to shoot patched roundballs (I typically use 12 to 15 grains of 4F or 3F under a patched 1-1/2 buckshot in my 32 caliber guns for example), though it doesn’t mean you can’t try.

If you want to deliver more energy to your target, the traditional way back in the muzzleloader day was a bigger hole in the barrel.

45 caliber and up, I may use patched roundballs or sized and paperpatched or lubed conicals (depending on the bore and intended target) up to 58 caliber, and patched foundballs only in 62 caliber. My current favorite bang flop traditional hunting setup is a 58 caliber patched roundball out of a short barreled flintlock, at least for where and how I hunt.

Back to your original question. What is it you are trying to do? Target shooting or hunting? If hunting, what kind of hunting? Part of the beauty and the bane of the traditional muzzleloaders is that there are not really any firm ‘rules’, though plenty of guidelines and recommendations.

 

[Dusty_Traveler]

Conicals/slugs work better in barrels with shallower grooves.

Size the bullet down to where it just "kisses the bore" when loaded. When fired it will obturate and fill the grooves.

For plain base bullets use an op wad. Leather or felt. This will help with gas cutting.

For hollow base bullets, load directly on the powder.

The longer the projectile, the faster the twist needed to stabilize it.

Lately I have been shooting a little rifle that was built with an Evans repeater barrel. The bore pin gauges at .425. It has quite shallow grooves and a 1:20something twist. I use .432" HBWC's sized down in steps to .424" and dip lubed. 30gr of 3f is producing promising results. By that I mean consistent hits on the 6" gong at 70 yards. The 215 grain bullet packs a punch. I'll work up a load for it someday.

With a shallow groove rifling and a tightly sized slug, you might find yourself needing to swab between shots. This will help with both loading and accuracy. I swab after pouring my powder, so I don't fill the fire path full of dookus.

The great thing about muzzleloaders is that there are no rules. Every load can be custom!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 pistol bullet work in the .36cal? What about a .32-20 bullet in the .32cal.

So the barrels accept round ball of .310, .350, .390..., Usually with at least a .010 patch of cloth around the ball, and often with a .015 patch. So the ball engaging the rifling is .320-.325, or .360-.365, and .400-.405. That piece of cloth is a gasket of sorts, and compresses, while those modern bullets are either too small or too large. IF you cast them yourself, you could as others have mentioned, get a swaging die and swage (compress) them down to a smaller diameter for the .40, say.

A modern alloy .40 handgun bullet casts out at .401. The alloys vary so a .401 swaging die is often used to get a uniform diameter lead alloy bullet. The mold is designed for alloy which does not shrink as much when cooling as does pure lead, so..., in theory, an all lead bullet from a .401 mold might cool to .398 and therefore not need much sizing.

However, then you would likely need to paper-patch that bullet, and also need a filler between the powder and the bullet, like cornmeal, to prevent the gasses from coming around the patched bullet due to the deep rifling.

After all of that, you have the question of spin rate being able to stabilize the projectile due to its shape, or not. Modern bullets often have much faster twist barrels, while those small calibers are normally 1:48 twist.

LD

 

[45man]

1 in 48 twist will work with both RB and bullets but for looong bullets you want a faster twist and a slower twist will allow you to shoot a RB faster. Back when I shot a .36 flinter for tree rats I would buy a 25# bag of buckshot I think it was OO and back then a bag was $5. Don't ask how old I am!

 

[Des52]

I have a .36 TC maxi ball mold that shoots good in my Traditions Frontier with the 1:48 twist like the TCs. I know TOTW sells maxis for .32 and .36 if you want to try them in your guns.

 

[ChuckJonesWagon]

Here's a pic of my .54 Cal GM 1-70 twist (could be 1-66, I can't recall right now) shooting .54 Cal hollow base Minie's at 100 yards. Off a bench of course. 100gr FF.

All my flintlock rifles are slow twist and all shoot a longer conical quite well.

 

[longcruise]

Please educate me.

At this point I think it would improve the quality of the education if you advised what you plan to use them for.

 

[JDBraddy]

Don't really have a purpose in mind, I'm not really a hunter, as I said am "curious" about conicals. Have heard folks make fantastic claims about centerfire like performance, but always figured muzzleloaders where limited by burn characteristics and pressures of black powder, and the ballistic coefficient of a PRB's.

That being said, the matches my club shoot are limited to PRB's, so basically I am just curious if perhaps I could get improved accuracy or ballistic performance with conicals. For example, can I get the accuracy and range comparable to say similar caliber black powder cartridge rifles 32-20, 38-40, 45-70, etc...?

 

[Ditt44]

Rate of twist, rifling depth and powder volume... if PRB vs Conical in the same barrel, then you can compare more fairly. And the default claim of 'every barrel is unique' blah blah blah, which is absolutely true

Conicals are going to be heavier in every caliber so you will have more foot pounds of energy at range considering comparable powder loads. Generally you are going to see recommendations of at least 10 grains more powder for a conical load vs a PRB to compensate for weight.

Aerodynamics are going to be better with a conical and you should have better accuracy at longer ranges while carrying more energy. Overall, at with one variable or another, you reach the point of no return/maximum benefit.

Rate of twist is crucial as well because the faster the twist, the more accurate the conical. The slower the twist, the more accurate the PRB. Compromise twists like the 1:48 on paper are suited for either projectile and I believe each barrel will tell you which it likes better. I have two Renegades, a .50 and a .54, both like PRB but do not like any of numerous conical and sabot rounds I have tried over the years; just will not group nicely. I also don't care for the heavy recoil from the conicals (too many concussions).

The best course of action would be to buy a small number of commonly used conicals and give them a try in whichever barrel has the most friendly twist. I would start there instead of trying to get a conical to shoot in a slow-twist or a ball in a fast twist.

I'll add a compilation image from the 2nd edition of Lyman's ML book using a .50 projectile in a 28" barrel... this does not guarantee accuracy but you can easily put these numbers into a ballistic calculator, such as Hornady's, and ballpark your trajectory.
Horandy Ballistic Calculator

 

[longcruise]

Don't really have a purpose in mind, I'm not really a hunter, as I said am "curious" about conicals. Have heard folks make fantastic claims about centerfire like performance, but always figured muzzleloaders where limited by burn characteristics and pressures of black powder, and the ballistic coefficient of a PRB's.

That being said, the matches my club shoot are limited to PRB's, so basically I am just curious if perhaps I could get improved accuracy or ballistic performance with conicals. For example, can I get the accuracy and range comparable to say similar caliber black powder cartridge rifles 32-20, 38-40, 45-70, etc...?

If hunting isn't on the table then there's probably not much use in them for you. Many like myself have found that they are not much advantage on game. You may or may not find them to be more accurate than RB. I shot them a lot in the 70's with a 50 caliber but balls were more accurate for me. What you will always get a + on with conicals is recoil.

 

[shorthair]

Would cast lead .40cal or 10mm pistol bullet work in the .40cal? Or a cast lead .358 pistol bullet work in the .36cal? What about a .32-20 bullet in the .32cal.

The lube grooves might be deeper than needed as they are designed for a harder lube. And many pistol molds are cut for gas checks which would be a poor choice for a muzzleloader.