Current options for a long land pattern bess?

[dave_person]

Hi EM,
Did you refinish that Military Heritage Bess? If you did, you did a fabulous job of coloring the teak to look like English walnut. Well done! The stock still needs a lot of shaping to make it look more like the real thing but your wood finish is very good. One thing I want to ask those of you who buy these India-made Besses. Have you ever seen a real Brown Bess? If you have, have you never actually noticed the details of how it was made? Go find me one example of an original Bess with a huge ugly notch carved in it for the flint **** or lock panels that wide and clumsy. Find me one example. One. You can't because that is not how they were made. When someone like the OP asks what options he or she has for a Brown Bess, my first response is what do you want a Bess for? If you just want a Bess-like gun to shoot, the India-made guns are fine if you get one with a good lock (don't worry about barrel safety). If you are a reenactor, realize they can never be much more than a cartoon version of the real thing but you can make improvements up to a point, just like the Miroku and Pedersoli Besses, which are not historically accurate either, can be improved. If having a historically accurate Bess is important in your decision, then you either have to buy a custom gun from someone who actually knows what Besses were like, or make your own from correct parts sold by TRS and even Track of the Wolf. I doubt there is a single India-made Bess, modified or not, Miroku Bess modified or not, or Pedersoli Bess modified or not, that would have passed British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They would have been rejected and scrapped for the metal or an attempt might be made to pawn them off to the African slave trade, which would reject them because the caliber was too large.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

Hi EM,
Did you refinish that Military Heritage Bess? If you did, you did a fabulous job of coloring the teak to look like English walnut. Well done! The stock still needs a lot of shaping to make it look more like the real thing but your wood finish is very good. One thing I want to ask those of you who buy these India-made Besses. Have you ever seen a real Brown Bess? If you have, have you never actually noticed the details of how it was made? Go find me one example of an original Bess with a huge ugly notch carved in it for the flint **** or lock panels that wide and clumsy. Find me one example. One. You can't because that is not how they were made. When someone like the OP asks what options he or she has for a Brown Bess, my first response is what do you want a Bess for? If you just want a Bess-like gun to shoot, the India-made guns are fine if you get one with a good lock (don't worry about barrel safety). If you are a reenactor, realize they can never be much more than a cartoon version of the real thing but you can make improvements up to a point, just like the Miroku and Pedersoli Besses, which are not historically accurate either, can be improved. If having a historically accurate Bess is important in your decision, then you either have to buy a custom gun from someone who actually knows what Besses were like, or make your own from correct parts sold by TRS and even Track of the Wolf. I doubt there is a single India-made Bess, modified or not, Miroku Bess modified or not, or Pedersoli Bess modified or not, that would have passed British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They would have been rejected and scrapped for the metal or an attempt might be made to pawn them off to the African slave trade, which would reject them because the caliber was too large.

dave

Its a real shame pedersoli will not improve the authenticity of the Brown Bess from a 7/8 scale second model to a larger more authentic second model and possibly make a long land and third model.

The market demand is there for all patterns.

Ironically Pedersoli’s Charleville’s are oversized and more authentic.

 

[JackP]

My shipping charge was for ten pounds including the box and packaging in total. That would make the musket under ten pounds.

My India 1766 in just over 9 1/2 lbs. The barrel is .260 thick at the breach.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Nick,
As Artificer and I have written several times, we don't know what the original prototype Bess was that Val Forgett (Navy Arms) sent over to Pedersoli. I've worked over quite a few Pedersolis and suggest the original might have been a Liege contract gun. Regardless, at the time the project was begun there was not the scholarship about Besses that we have today. Who knows, with the Grice marked lock but with a pseudo pattern 1769 barrel and stock, the prototype might have been a gun cobbled together during more modern times as a "restoration". Unfortunately, despite much better knowledge now, Pedersoli never upgraded their repro.

dave

 

[FlinterNick]

The lock they made in the 1970s wasn’t a bad design in terms of authenticity, in the 1980s they Redesigned it and made it smaller with the new main spring and sear… an unfortunate digression.

 

[FlinterNick]

My India 1766 in just over 9 1/2 lbs. The barrel is .260 thick at the breach.

that’s about 1lb heavier than a 1766. The weight is Probably in the stock is my best Guess. The barrel sounds closer to a 1763 than a 66.

The originals that I’ve measured for a 66 start at around 1.185 or higher and taper down to .860 muzzle. One I recently saw the Baltimore gun show was around 1.190. The muroku barrel is almost an exact copy of an original 1763 barrel I’ve seen in two different collections.

 

[Youngblood]

Are those Military Heritage guns made in india?

 

[Artificer]

The lock they made in the 1970s wasn’t a bad design in terms of authenticity, in the 1980s they Redesigned it and made it smaller with the new main spring and sear… an unfortunate digression.

Indeed, I would LOVE to see Pedersoli make a repro of the P1742 Long Land Musket with wood rammer as the BEST choice of Brown Bess patterns for the F&I War and perfectly acceptable for both Patriot and Loyalist Militia in the AWI.

Further, I would LOVE to see Pedersoli make a repro of the P1756 Long Land Musket with steel rammer as the BEST choice of Brown Bess patterns for the AWI and though not historically correct, an acceptable choice for most F&I War events.

Personally, I would buy one of each as soon as they came out, but I honestly don't think there is enough of a market for Pedersoli to make any money doing it.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Are those Military Heritage guns made in india?

Yes

Gus

 

[Artificer]

Indeed, I would LOVE to see Pedersoli make a repro of the P1742 Long Land Musket with wood rammer as the BEST choice of Brown Bess patterns for the F&I War and perfectly acceptable for both Patriot and Loyalist Militia in the AWI.

Further, I would LOVE to see Pedersoli make a repro of the P1756 Long Land Musket with steel rammer as the BEST choice of Brown Bess patterns for the AWI and though not historically correct, an acceptable choice for most F&I War events.

Personally, I would buy one of each as soon as they came out, but I honestly don't think there is enough of a market for Pedersoli to make any money doing it.

Gus

Heck, while I'm wishing, if Pedersoli made a repro of the P1756 Long Land Musket with steel rammer with NO Royal Cypher and no Ordnance mark such as "Tower" or "Dublin Castle," one could stretch it a bit and call it an FIW War "Made for the Trade" or "Commercial" Musket. That or at least OFFER the lock plate made with or without markings.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

Heck, while I'm wishing, if Pedersoli made a repro of the P1756 Long Land Musket with steel rammer with NO Royal Cypher and no Ordnance mark such as "Tower" or "Dublin Castle," one could stretch it a bit and call it an FIW War "Made for the Trade" or "Commercial" Musket. That or at least OFFER the lock plate made with or without markings.

Gus

technically Pedersoli was involved in the designing of the coach harness 1755/56 long land …. Which was a nice design too, pedersoli likely has records on the lock and barrel and brass.

i believe the stock was Kit Ravensheers pattern which Dave Keck now owns

 

[Artificer]

GOOD Point, I forgot about that. Duh. Well, that would make it less expensive for them to make the P1756 musket w/steel rammer rather than starting out from scratch.

Gus

 

[FlinterNick]

GOOD Point, I forgot about that. Duh. Well, that would make it less expensive for them to make the P1756 musket w/steel rammer rather than starting out from scratch.

Gus

makes one wonder how their CNC shop is set up for the Bess stock and barrels. With 3d tech you can copy and modify anything with minimal added costs.

 

[edw.marshall]

Hi EM,
Did you refinish that Military Heritage Bess? If you did, you did a fabulous job of coloring the teak to look like English walnut. Well done! The stock still needs a lot of shaping to make it look more like the real thing but your wood finish is very good. One thing I want to ask those of you who buy these India-made Besses. Have you ever seen a real Brown Bess? If you have, have you never actually noticed the details of how it was made? Go find me one example of an original Bess with a huge ugly notch carved in it for the flint **** or lock panels that wide and clumsy. Find me one example. One. You can't because that is not how they were made. When someone like the OP asks what options he or she has for a Brown Bess, my first response is what do you want a Bess for? If you just want a Bess-like gun to shoot, the India-made guns are fine if you get one with a good lock (don't worry about barrel safety). If you are a reenactor, realize they can never be much more than a cartoon version of the real thing but you can make improvements up to a point, just like the Miroku and Pedersoli Besses, which are not historically accurate either, can be improved. If having a historically accurate Bess is important in your decision, then you either have to buy a custom gun from someone who actually knows what Besses were like, or make your own from correct parts sold by TRS and even Track of the Wolf. I doubt there is a single India-made Bess, modified or not, Miroku Bess modified or not, or Pedersoli Bess modified or not, that would have passed British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They would have been rejected and scrapped for the metal or an attempt might be made to pawn them off to the African slave trade, which would reject them because the caliber was too large.

dave

The answer is yes, I stripped & refinished the Military Heritage LL Bess & yes they leave a lot to be desired concerning authenticity but they are more than adequately authentic for F&I period re-enacting. I also dismantled, polished, tuned & checked the lock parts for proper hardness. The high carbon steel barrels are heavy walled & safe to shoot with RB & shot.

Hi EM,
Did you refinish that Military Heritage Bess? If you did, you did a fabulous job of coloring the teak to look like English walnut. Well done! The stock still needs a lot of shaping to make it look more like the real thing but your wood finish is very good. One thing I want to ask those of you who buy these India-made Besses. Have you ever seen a real Brown Bess? If you have, have you never actually noticed the details of how it was made? Go find me one example of an original Bess with a huge ugly notch carved in it for the flint **** or lock panels that wide and clumsy. Find me one example. One. You can't because that is not how they were made. When someone like the OP asks what options he or she has for a Brown Bess, my first response is what do you want a Bess for? If you just want a Bess-like gun to shoot, the India-made guns are fine if you get one with a good lock (don't worry about barrel safety). If you are a reenactor, realize they can never be much more than a cartoon version of the real thing but you can make improvements up to a point, just like the Miroku and Pedersoli Besses, which are not historically accurate either, can be improved. If having a historically accurate Bess is important in your decision, then you either have to buy a custom gun from someone who actually knows what Besses were like, or make your own from correct parts sold by TRS and even Track of the Wolf. I doubt there is a single India-made Bess, modified or not, Miroku Bess modified or not, or Pedersoli Bess modified or not, that would have passed British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They would have been rejected and scrapped for the metal or an attempt might be made to pawn them off to the African slave trade, which would reject them because the caliber was too large.

dave

 

[edw.marshall]

Hi EM,
Did you refinish that Military Heritage Bess? If you did, you did a fabulous job of coloring the teak to look like English walnut. Well done! The stock still needs a lot of shaping to make it look more like the real thing but your wood finish is very good. One thing I want to ask those of you who buy these India-made Besses. Have you ever seen a real Brown Bess? If you have, have you never actually noticed the details of how it was made? Go find me one example of an original Bess with a huge ugly notch carved in it for the flint **** or lock panels that wide and clumsy. Find me one example. One. You can't because that is not how they were made. When someone like the OP asks what options he or she has for a Brown Bess, my first response is what do you want a Bess for? If you just want a Bess-like gun to shoot, the India-made guns are fine if you get one with a good lock (don't worry about barrel safety). If you are a reenactor, realize they can never be much more than a cartoon version of the real thing but you can make improvements up to a point, just like the Miroku and Pedersoli Besses, which are not historically accurate either, can be improved. If having a historically accurate Bess is important in your decision, then you either have to buy a custom gun from someone who actually knows what Besses were like, or make your own from correct parts sold by TRS and even Track of the Wolf. I doubt there is a single India-made Bess, modified or not, Miroku Bess modified or not, or Pedersoli Bess modified or not, that would have passed British ordnance inspection during the 18th century. They would have been rejected and scrapped for the metal or an attempt might be made to pawn them off to the African slave trade, which would reject them because the caliber was too large.

dave

Sure it’s great if you have $3000 & 2 years to wait for TRS or a custom gunbuilder.

 

[Frederickdav]

Anybody try Access Heritage? I bought a 3rd model Brown Bess for $549. Fit and finish isn't all that great but I've seen worse. The cool thing is they are shipped without the flash hole drilled. That way they are not firearms.

 

[dave_person]

"Sure it’s great if you have $3000 & 2 years to wait for TRS or a custom gunbuilder. "

I haven't had to wait for more than 2 months for Bess parts from TRS. They keep a lot in stock. You might have to wait longer if you want the lock assembled rather than build it yourself. Yup. you'll have to pay more than $600 for a custom made Bess but unless you build it yourself or have a knowledgeable maker build it, you won't ever have a historically accurate Bess. I am curious, if you refinished the stock why did you not get rid of those horrible lock panels, barrel tang apron, and the general clumsiness of the stock? You could of done it easily and made it a lot better considering you took the time to strip the old finish off?

dave

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

I found years ago that it is better to assemble a Rifle Shoppe lock yourself than to have them do it.

 

[sportster73hp]

i ordered a 1769 Bess from TRS took just under three months because i wanted them to build the lock. They had everything in stock except labor. The hight of covid and a snowstorm.
Lock works every time.

 

[FlinterNick]

I’ve had to wait a few months to a few years for parts from the Rifle Shoppe.

They tend to keep a large stock of their Brown Bess Components, their stocks take the longest.

I used to have them assemble my own locks, now I do my own. In all it took me about 2 months to assemble, however I could have completed it about a month sooner with complete attention and devotion to the projects.

, 4 little kids and all are in sports gets much of my time.