Custom Gun Buying Protection?

[arcticap]

I like to see a frank discussion about how people who are interested in ordering a "custom" M.L. gun can better protect themselves from some of the potential risks, whether the deal involves buying from someone who may be close by or thousands of miles away.
I've heard it said quite often that good quality has it's price. Yet all too often, the disparity between price and quality is the reason for regular buyer complaints.
And even though there is rarely an agreement that comes with a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee, often enough the "devil is in the details", or lack thereof.
What can be learned from the collective experiences of the multitude of custom gun buyers on this site about the practical ways to not be disappointed upon delivery? :shocking:

 

[Slowpoke]

If you're talking about custom builders, I'm assuming you're referring to those builders that produce 10 or fewer guns a years. I know they're the A.Martins and M.Brooks of the world that do more but most custom builders do less. I've only had one custom gun built (target rifle) and I basically just wrote down what I wanted and he built it. I've built a couple rifles for people and I always made them write down what they wanted, no detail was to small. Other than what they wrote down it was going to up to me. this should be an interesting thread.
SP

 

[arcticap]

I meant to use the word "custom" in the most general way, as in any gun that hasn't been built yet, and needed to be made or built to order. Not necessarily the highest end guns at all. eace:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Let me throw in the builders point of view, some of you might find it usefull.
Research the builders that are available and choose one that has a style that you like, then ask him to build that style. I'm mainly a builder of flint lock fowling pieces , especially english ones and early virginia and penn. rifles. I wouldn't ask somebody like me to build a cap lock bedford or hawken. Also pay attention to the finish the builder commonly uses. If he specialises in antique finishes, and you like that then he's your man....Don't ask him to do a high polished crisp as new styled gun.
Don't pay all your money up front. If he's anything like me he'll never get around to building the gun, because there is no pay check involved apon compleation. A gun maker who has some bills to pay is pretty likely to get to your gun if he knows there's a pay check at the end.
Handle some of the makers guns so you know what to expect. Ask around and find some people that have some experience with your builder.
Always figure your custom builder if he's any good will have a long waiting list, probably a couple years. If he doesn't, there's a reason why. He's going to try and deliver your gun on time, but he's going to have trouble nailing down just exactly when when he's already got 25+ guns on his waiting list.
If you want real quality, don't go with the cheapest thing you can find. You get what you pay for in general in this game. A well done gun from a popular maker goes up in value while you own it. More than you can say for the new chevy that cost you over 30K.

 

[AZ-Robert]

Recognizing that a builder has some upfront costs in material and components, a pretty good down payment seems reasonable. But as Mike says, final payment should come with delivery.

But only two payments? Or incremental as the gun progresses? Final payment amount variable based on customer satisfaction?

Is there an accepted "industry standard practice," or is each gun a contract unto itself?

 

[tg]

I think Mr Brooks made some good points but the definition of the gun we are talking about is of importance here, if you are going from a 400 dollar Cabelas to a 800 dollar TVM Caywood, ERA, or similar gun you have stepped up from K-mart to Wal Mart and are not shopping at the top and problems are more likely with the higher volume builders as are the non-authentic things that will be passed of as PC... when you step into the realm of the Brooks, Immel, Kettenberg and builders of this caliber the chance of problems will diminish and the preice will go up and the lead time will be much longer.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Excellent responses-all.I have listened to several other builders echo exactly what Mike says here.

I might add that if you could actually see and handle what various custom builders are putting out,you probably would be better satisfied.The best way that I know of doing this is to go to the Contemporary Longrifle Association Show in Lexington,Kentucky each August.Not all contemporary builders will be there,but a large number will be.

It seems to me after messing around in this hobby or whatever it is for many years that I am just as confused in some respects as I was in the beginning.Here's an example:
We all know that there are maybe three,maybe four builders that most folks consider to be the premium,walk-on-water builders.One of these I consider to be a very good,take-a-drink-togather,go-hunting-togather kinda friends.He is building me a Dickert that will be ready late next year after a five year wait.Their work is outstanding-no question about it.BUT....I also see other builders,young fellows with maybe a dozen pieces to their credit,that are also outstanding builders.What I'm saying is that even after years I have trouble seeing why the output of certain high end builders is better in quality and appearance than some of the younger less experienced builders. Perhaps there are subtle things that I'm just not good enough in picking up on. Any thoughts or ideas or comments?

 

[Runner]

I am into airguns and muzzleloaders. Hopefully one day I will have a muzzleloader airgun. I watch both worlds pretty close and participate in both.

On the airgun side, I watch talented craftsmen make barrels, locks, trigger groups, valves, stocks, sights, and everything else in one shop. High quality guns stocked in walnut. One of those guys is Dennis Quackenbush. He sells his guns for less than their resale value and makes a profit off them. His muzzleloader long rifle airgun recreation of a few years back sold for 700$. His current guns sell for 700$ I think. His recreation of a much older airgun from before rifling was commonly used sold for less. Another smith just did a run of high quality target rifles made in Califiornia that will compete with any other rifle made in the world for their type of competition. They sold fo about 1500$ The accuracy was tested before release.

I look at the muzzleloader world and it is different. One guy makes barrels with mark up. Another makes locks with markup. Another does the wood. Another does this and another does that. They all take a cut. Then the craftsman that assembles, fits, and polishes these parts wants to be paid. There are simply too many hands in the pot. The craftsmen do fantastic work, but they do not make a gun at all. They assemble parts made by others and some of them do that very very well indeed. It still isn't making a gun. To be fair, some are a lot closer to doing so than others are.

This is not a slam at the craftsmen that do such elegant work on the muzzleloaders. Some of them are incredible talents and their prices are reasonable for the talent you are contracting. Those guns are in another class. On the guns where you can order a certain model and where they make multiple copies of the same gun over and over, the prices are way out of line. Dennis could produce the same gun at a profit for a lot less and some of these builders better hope someone like him never enters the game. You would not hear the complaints, the price would be chopped a lot, and the work would be done right. He did 100 airguns last year I think on top of his other machine shop work and the custom airgun parts he was making. I would love to see that turned into 100 Southern poorboys at a good price. By the way, the waiting list for his guns is so bad that they almost double in value the minute he finishes and delivers them. The muzzleloading world has to be realistic, or it falls into the niche of a wealthy supported niche art form. That is what I see happening today. I know this will not be a popular post, but it is true.

How can the custom builder have less customer complaints and greater customer satisfaction? If you charge art prices, you need to deliver art. Everything needs to be spelled out in advance and parts to be used identified. A separation between high end art pieces and shooter guns needs to exist and the price should reflect that. If you want a carved piece of art covered with inlay and made of exhibition grade wood, then be prepared to pay for it. If you want a shooter to take to the line, go to a rendezvous and buy from the local talent after seeing the gun. Save yourself some money and headaches. I guess that means the builders would have to be there with their wares or get left out. One last note. Dennis does not take a dime deposit on a gun. Not one dime until he has product to deliver. Wouldn't that be refreshing in the muzzleloader world!

 

[Mike Brooks]

I'm curious, what should a "shooter grade" gun sell for in your opinion?
And just exactly what is a "shooter grade" gun?
Have your air gun buddy jump right in to the muzzleloading field, I'd like to see his 100% "in shop" made guns.

 

[Runner]

Then go to his website. The pictures are there. Go to Big Bore Bob's website. He tunes the guns and re-sells them for around twice or better than the original price a lot of the time. Dennis already makes all the locks and such for the antique airguns out there. You really don't want him in the business at all. Do a search on Quackenbush airguns. One member here has already lamented the fact that he was busy building airguns and he could not get barrels from him.

Around here I can buy plain jane shooter guns in the 700 to 1000$ range all day long. Some days better. When you add another 700 to 1000$ onto that price, I expect to see something for the money. I did very plainly say that there is a difference between plain jane guns and art guns.

 

[Mike Brooks]

I didn't make my self clear, I don't want to see his air rifle, I would like to see the all home made muzzle loaders for $700 that will come out of his shop.
700 to $1000 isn't much for a gun. I pay nearly that in parts for one of mine.
$220 barrel
$125 lock
$100 stock
$40 for the buttplate and trigger guard
$10 for plain pipes
$10 for sights
$20 for a sideplate and nose cap
$15 for misc.
That's near $550 just in parts not including what it costs to get those parts shipped to me. My parts prices are conservative in the $'s I estimated also.
To put together a plain jane shooter takes me around 35 to 40 hours, not counting the barrel inlet and ram rod hole .
$700
-$550 = $150 divided by 35 hours = $4.20 per hour.....I'm not likely to be interested in building a gun for $4.20 an hour.
:shake:

 

[Wehrmacht]

Now I'm confused.Maybe I don't understand what is being said.But to me,a builder is more-much more-than a "parts changer" or"parts-putter-togather". To take a slab of wood from Wayne Dunlap or Freddie Harrison,a barrel from Rice or Rayle et al,and a lock from Jim Chambers and produce a quality piece is an art and requires a heck of a lot of talent IMO. It's not a simple case of assembling parts produced by four or five "middlemen",or else I don't see the full picture.

How long does it take to assemble the components needed to produce a piece and end up with a quality finished product? I don't know since I'm not a builder,but I suspect it'll take close to a hundred[url] hours.In[/url] my profession of telling landowners on how to make the most money on their timberland or produce the maximum numbers of deer,turkey or quail per acre,a landowner better be willing to pay me $50.00 an hour,or I ain't spending five minutes with him/her. Do most builders get this? The four or five that I mentioned earlier probably do,but I bet very,very few other builders do and I think they should approach this much.Am I too far out in left field here? I don't think so.

 

[Runner]

You just made my point. He would do it with about 50$ worth of steel, 10$ worth of brass, and whatever the raw wood cost him. The 45 long rifle type air rifle is a muzzleloader built for hunting deer. I wish he would do another run of them so I could get one!

 

[Wehrmacht]

I didn't see Mike's post before I posted my other one,but let me add this:

I have a friend (more than one,actually : from my home county in the North Georgia Mountains who is very tallanted in woodworking and making knives.He's less than half my age. Not long ago I showed him a Hershel House .50cal rifle that I have,and it set him on fire. He is decended from one of the old rifle makers of our County,John Gillespie,and had,in his family,one of the original Gillespie rifles made in about 1840. In order to get him jump-started in making rifles,I worked out a deal whereby I would supply all of the components to make two rifles-the first was to be his,the next mine.(See my scheme here? The first his,the second-better built-mine :winkingSo I bought top of the line components-Rice barrels,stump cut curley maple from Freddie Harrison,Jim Chambers L&R locks and Gillespie cast tricker guards,butt plates,thimbles,etc from Dennis Glazener. These components ran about $750.00 for each rifle.The point here is simply to point out that components cost money,to which must be added a fair price for building the piece.IMO I have a $3,000.00 rifle for half that price,but the sad thing about it is that the young fellow who built this quality piece probably couldn't get half that simply because he isn't one of the "known" builders.(Quality is exceptionally good,by the way).

The fellow making air rifles most definately deserves a premium price for what he makes,but I question if the components going into an air rifle equal those which go into a quality rifle or smoothbore.Am I off base here?

 

[Runner]

Actually, some of the airguns he builds or builds parts for are more complicated than any muzzleloader lock by far. He does his own barrels and people pay pretty good money for them too. No, the air guns are not as elaborate as the muzzleloaders are as far as the wood, but he uses good quality wood anyway. He is known for historic accuracy on the parts he makes for hundreds of years old guns.

I am just using Dennis as an example because he already does all of the things needed to do the job. He builds locks, rifles barrels, builds guns, and has all of the equipment to do a run. There are others out there too.

 

[Mike Brooks]

You just made my point. He would do it with about 50$ worth of steel, 10$ worth of brass, and whatever the raw wood cost him. The 45 long rifle type air rifle is a muzzleloader built for hunting deer. I wish he would do another run of them so I could get one!

Well, what ever.... If I had to make all the parts for my guns In my own shop the price for my guns would start at $15,000. I could do it either in the traditional way with a forge and hammer, or I could buy the modern machinery to make the components, Lathe, mill..... What will that stuff cost? $50K ?
When you get right down to it, I have no desire what so ever to hand make every part. I can buy all of them elsewhere for a small percentage of what it would cost me to do by hand. That's the advantage of specialization, these folks can build this stuff cheaper than I can because they do it in volume and have the experience to get it done right.
If this fella wants to get into the low end muzzleloading market and corner it so he can run every body out of business with his inexpensive all handmade muzzleloading rifles, more power to him. The low end market is pretty well covered by CVA, Traditions , TC...etc.
It's never been my philosophy to build the cheapest plainest "shooter grade" gun I could and sell it for next to nothing and make $8.00 an hour. I'd go flip burgers instead.

 

Having bought several custom MLing rifles/smoothbores and numerous custom knives over the years, I'll add a few words. First, there was a long time when I could not afford even a factory made MLer and a custom one was a pipe dream. So my first real MLer I made myself. I am not that skilled with wood or metal work, but patience, advice from a local builder and MANY hours of handwork turned out a fine rifle I am still proud of. In 1978 the parts cost me $300--it would be $600 today at least, maybe more as the piece of wood was exceptional. It took me 166 hrs using only hand tools and working without the aid of a proper shop--plus bursitus in both shoulders (you don't want the cure for that!). At a measly $5/hr that comes to $830 labor. $10/hr would have been a more reasonable charge = $1660. That's what I 'saved'--but 166 hrs is a lot of time. Experiences with custom knife builders: a custom knife is easier to make than a rifle (here come the NOs!)--at least the cost of materials and labor required are less. Yet some master smiths (and some who are not) charge custom ML rifle prices for a single knife. My most expensive Bowie knife cost more than any custom rifle/fusil I have bought. One internationally known maker made a deal with me for a small knife for $500 and said he had a 1.5 year wait. Fine. Two years went by, three, four....meanwhile he had been selected as a national artist of merit and his prices soared. He was no longer really interested in my little knife and was commanding thousands for art knives. Finally I had my wife call him up and plead with him to get the knife to me for a Christmas present and after 5+ years I finally got the knife at the origianl price--but he advised me to insure it for at least $1500. Typically the better makers are backlogged several years and a few no longer take orders, but sell the few they make each year at astronomical prices. Custom MLing gun makers: I have dealt with three (no names). The best one is a friend in a nearby town who makes fine guns for only a little over cost of materials. Why? He is retired and loves to do it--call him an advanced hobbyist if you will, but his guns are fine lookers and shooters. I own several of his guns at the price of one from some other makers. Does this reflect badly on the ones who charge more---NO! They are artisans making (or trying to) a living at their trade! The other two delivered the guns way past the promised date, but I got them. Neither gun was exactly as I had ordered it, but both were well-made. As we have discussed here before--you take a chance when you deal with one-man shops on any custom item from a distance! Know your builder, research him/her, don't order unless you can financially take the loss if something happens! The best of them can get run over by a truck in the middle of your job! Two of the most expensive knives I ordered were not quite up to what I expected. Three of the guns I bought were not either. But were they worth it? Probably. I could make money on any of them today. The best shooting MLer I own? The first one I ever built back in 1978.

 

[marcstephen]

I didn't make my self clear, I don't want to see his air rifle, I would like to see the all home made muzzle loaders for $700 that will come out of his shop.
700 to $1000 isn't much for a gun. I pay nearly that in parts for one of mine.
$220 barrel
$125 lock
$100 stock
$40 for the buttplate and trigger guard
$10 for plain pipes
$10 for sights
$20 for a sideplate and nose cap
$15 for misc.
That's near $550 just in parts not including what it costs to get those parts shipped to me. My parts prices are conservative in the $'s I estimated also.
To put together a plain jane shooter takes me around 35 to 40 hours, not counting the barrel inlet and ram rod hole .
$700
-$550 = $150 divided by 35 hours = $4.20 per hour.....I'm not likely to be interested in building a gun for $4.20 an hour.
:shake:

$4.20 is not even minimum wage!!!

 

well first I would say the same as many others here find a builder that specializes in what your looking for . Many like Mike brooks have a nitch, and area of expertise and the name to back it .
However this isn

 

[Mike Brooks]

The rest I would agree with Mike Brooks , did I say that ??? MMMM LMAO

I'm really not the evil ogre you think I am. eace: