Cut down rifle...
- Thread starter dkloos
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Tom, Paul,
You are both pinging dead on target IMO with your comments. I don't see how it could be intelligently argued otherwise.
The short barreled Indian guns recovered close by were without question cut back for some reason to salvage what was left for further use.
You are both pinging dead on target IMO with your comments. I don't see how it could be intelligently argued otherwise.
The short barreled Indian guns recovered close by were without question cut back for some reason to salvage what was left for further use.
Russ T Frizzen
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What amazes me no end is that someone is making fireable replicas of this gun. And selling them at very high prices, too. Forty years ago, I could see no advantage to destroying a '92 Winchester by making an awkward and nearly unusable clunker out of it, and I still don't.
I have a Markwell Arms pistol. Someone on the forum has a Markwell Arms rifle. I bought another Markwell Arms pistol on eBay for parts. I have seen several Monarch rifles on eBay.
That having been said, you illustrated my point very well. They were not regarded as particularly desireable, so now 30 odd years later you just don't see them often. Now, a cut down rifle back in the era of long guns would not be seen as particularly desireable - you are going to have a VERY hard time finding one now - assuming any survived...
That having been said, you illustrated my point very well. They were not regarded as particularly desireable, so now 30 odd years later you just don't see them often. Now, a cut down rifle back in the era of long guns would not be seen as particularly desireable - you are going to have a VERY hard time finding one now - assuming any survived...
I wish they were still undesirable.
Bountyhunter
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Apparently there were some short rifles that did exist.
Original 1801 Prussian Cavalry Carbine in Quay County Historical Museum, Tucumcari, New Mexico.
I took this picture about an hour ago. This gun is totally original, it is clean, the bore may have been fired, but it is clean, the nipple is unfired. We went over this gun a few months ago on another thread. It is an 1801 Prussian Cavalry Carbine, which obviously found its way to this area from Mexico as they were converted to percussion and given to the Mexican Army.
They might not have been common, but some did exist. This gun is about .72 cal and is deeply rifled. The barrel is 16". If it were more fired looking, I would suspect that it had been used by the Commancheros for buffalo running. However, the new nipple and no evidence of capfire around the breech area takes that notion away. It has a short brass blade front sight, and an unusual folding leaf rear sight. The curator told me that this gun was obtained by the founder of the museum sometime around 1900.
Larger images can be had here:[url] http://www.hunt101.com/img/436353.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436352.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436354.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436355.jpg[/url]
Bill
Original 1801 Prussian Cavalry Carbine in Quay County Historical Museum, Tucumcari, New Mexico.
I took this picture about an hour ago. This gun is totally original, it is clean, the bore may have been fired, but it is clean, the nipple is unfired. We went over this gun a few months ago on another thread. It is an 1801 Prussian Cavalry Carbine, which obviously found its way to this area from Mexico as they were converted to percussion and given to the Mexican Army.
They might not have been common, but some did exist. This gun is about .72 cal and is deeply rifled. The barrel is 16". If it were more fired looking, I would suspect that it had been used by the Commancheros for buffalo running. However, the new nipple and no evidence of capfire around the breech area takes that notion away. It has a short brass blade front sight, and an unusual folding leaf rear sight. The curator told me that this gun was obtained by the founder of the museum sometime around 1900.
Larger images can be had here:[url] http://www.hunt101.com/img/436353.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436352.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436354.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/img/436355.jpg[/url]
Bill
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I was wondering when someone was going to bring these arms up! :hatsoff:
I got outbid on a similar Austrian gendarme carbine (rifled, btw.) at an Alderfer auction a few years ago. Approx. .70 cal., with about a 15" rifled barrel, in the original flintlock configuration.
Short rifled guns were definitely not just someone's fantasy, at least by the Napoleonic era. Some of these arms were shipped to the South in the Civil War, many converted to percussion, and used as cavalry carbines.
Now whether these European guns had any influence on American civilian arms is another question...
I got outbid on a similar Austrian gendarme carbine (rifled, btw.) at an Alderfer auction a few years ago. Approx. .70 cal., with about a 15" rifled barrel, in the original flintlock configuration.
Short rifled guns were definitely not just someone's fantasy, at least by the Napoleonic era. Some of these arms were shipped to the South in the Civil War, many converted to percussion, and used as cavalry carbines.
Now whether these European guns had any influence on American civilian arms is another question...
Va.Manuf.06
58 Cal.
Bountyhunter, thanks for posting more pictures of that blast from the past! :applause: The German reegimental buttplate markings are especially interesting:
13
1GUR
4E
Means 13 weapon, 4th Escadron (Squadron), Garde Ulanen Regiment Nr.1 (1st. Guard Lancer Regiment - an Elite Regiment of the Prussian military)
The Polish inspired Lancers in all armies of 19th Century Europe were considered the elite of cavalry and were capable of riding down infantry more easily than others since they had the reach of the long lance - even infantry squares which were usually able to withstand saber wielding cavalry charges quite well often shattered before the Lancers. Lancers last saw heavy service in 1914 at the beginning of WW1 and retained their organization through WW1, at least in the German Army. The Polish Lancers last saw service during Germany's attack in 1939 where they charged the German invaders - they didn't do too well but all considered it an incredibly brave action. Sorry to wander off track... :redface:
As I said during our last discussion about this carbine, it is very dounbtful that this gun ever saw Mexico, at least not as an issue military weapon and it certainly did not see any use by Commancheroes. After issue to the elite Guard Uhlans in Germany, it was passed on to their Reserve Cavalry, then their Landwehr (3rd line reserves) and was then put in storage until the late 19th Century. It was probably converted to percussion no later than 1850 while it was still in use by the Reserve. As I said in the last discussion, it probably was sold to one of the arms dealers in Germany who then passed it on to Bannermans where this model of carbine was still advertised in the 1920s. So, sorry this one can't count as a "short" rifle used on our frontier, it is a European rifled cavalry carbine showing no use after it's military use in Germany.
13
1GUR
4E
Means 13 weapon, 4th Escadron (Squadron), Garde Ulanen Regiment Nr.1 (1st. Guard Lancer Regiment - an Elite Regiment of the Prussian military)
The Polish inspired Lancers in all armies of 19th Century Europe were considered the elite of cavalry and were capable of riding down infantry more easily than others since they had the reach of the long lance - even infantry squares which were usually able to withstand saber wielding cavalry charges quite well often shattered before the Lancers. Lancers last saw heavy service in 1914 at the beginning of WW1 and retained their organization through WW1, at least in the German Army. The Polish Lancers last saw service during Germany's attack in 1939 where they charged the German invaders - they didn't do too well but all considered it an incredibly brave action. Sorry to wander off track... :redface:
As I said during our last discussion about this carbine, it is very dounbtful that this gun ever saw Mexico, at least not as an issue military weapon and it certainly did not see any use by Commancheroes. After issue to the elite Guard Uhlans in Germany, it was passed on to their Reserve Cavalry, then their Landwehr (3rd line reserves) and was then put in storage until the late 19th Century. It was probably converted to percussion no later than 1850 while it was still in use by the Reserve. As I said in the last discussion, it probably was sold to one of the arms dealers in Germany who then passed it on to Bannermans where this model of carbine was still advertised in the 1920s. So, sorry this one can't count as a "short" rifle used on our frontier, it is a European rifled cavalry carbine showing no use after it's military use in Germany.
Dick The Ranger
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I think it was a 1892 and he wore .45-70 cartridges in his belt.:hmm:
Russ T Frizzen
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Yep. The producers thought that .45-70 cartridges looked more impressive.
The only cut down original long rifles I've ever seen were Confederate pieces made by shortening Penn/Kentucky rifles down to around 25" barrels and adding sling swivels. Full length were usually converted by turning the muzzle down round to fit a socket bayonet and the bore reamed out ot .58 smooth to accept military paper cartridge ammo. The boys down south laid their hands on anything that would go BANG!
**** The Ranger said:
Russ is right. The producers thought it looked cute. For a mere $1495.00 you can have your own "Mare's Leg" made currently. They are classified as "pistols" by the BATF and the paperwork is the same as any other handgun.
Another cut-down weapon, although who knows when the saw blade bit -[url]
http://www.opferauction.com/sales/oaSale_031804_1.php[/url]
34
Relic Revolutionary War Brunswick Musket Overall length: 23 ¾ in. Barrel: 13 ¾ in. L x 0.80 bore: Lock: 6 3/8 x 1 1/8 in. Weight: 4 lbs. This rather intriguing arm appears to be a “coach gun” or pistol (reminiscent in form to early 17th century dragoon pistols) and was made by cutting down the barrel and forestock of a musket and removing all of the butt--with the exception of its wrist. It was made from a Germanic musket of the mid-18th century, which appears to be one of a pattern known to have been carried by Brunswick troops during the Revolutionary War; although unmarked, the flat lockplate (without exterior bridle) and distinctive brass hardware is identical to excavated examples from Saratoga campaign sites, as well as documented, complete examples in museum and private collections. $400/500 Literature: Neumann (1998); personal examination of captured Brunswick arms with provenance in various museums, including the Old State House (Boston) and Historic Deerfield.
34
Relic Revolutionary War Brunswick Musket Overall length: 23 ¾ in. Barrel: 13 ¾ in. L x 0.80 bore: Lock: 6 3/8 x 1 1/8 in. Weight: 4 lbs. This rather intriguing arm appears to be a “coach gun” or pistol (reminiscent in form to early 17th century dragoon pistols) and was made by cutting down the barrel and forestock of a musket and removing all of the butt--with the exception of its wrist. It was made from a Germanic musket of the mid-18th century, which appears to be one of a pattern known to have been carried by Brunswick troops during the Revolutionary War; although unmarked, the flat lockplate (without exterior bridle) and distinctive brass hardware is identical to excavated examples from Saratoga campaign sites, as well as documented, complete examples in museum and private collections. $400/500 Literature: Neumann (1998); personal examination of captured Brunswick arms with provenance in various museums, including the Old State House (Boston) and Historic Deerfield.
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in one show when Mcqueen was at the store he asked for 3030s in another he asked for 4570s :yakyak: must of wore one rifle out then got the other,,,anyone else notice this,,,which cartridge did he use first??? :shake: :shake: :shake:
We all know that specific examples of cut down rifles can be found. If that is enough to "prove the point" that folks cut down their rifles, fair enough.
If we consider what the Native Americans and frontiersman actually purchased as trade rifles, it is clear that long guns were the thing. Even in the 1830's and later, plenty of 42" barreled guns were in high demand.
If the Native Americans and frontiersmen actually wanted or preferred short barreled rifles, by and large, the trade rifle makers would have supplied them and nobody would have needed to cut them down.
Note that even the Hawkens, which had some features from English guns of the period (scroll guards, etc) often had much longer barrels than most folks realize- 34, 36" barrels are often found on Hawkens.
When one shot had to count, having a long sighting plane and a heavy barrel that would not wobble was the ticket.
Guns got cut down when they burst at the muzzle from clogging the muzzle with snow or mud.
If we consider what the Native Americans and frontiersman actually purchased as trade rifles, it is clear that long guns were the thing. Even in the 1830's and later, plenty of 42" barreled guns were in high demand.
If the Native Americans and frontiersmen actually wanted or preferred short barreled rifles, by and large, the trade rifle makers would have supplied them and nobody would have needed to cut them down.
Note that even the Hawkens, which had some features from English guns of the period (scroll guards, etc) often had much longer barrels than most folks realize- 34, 36" barrels are often found on Hawkens.
When one shot had to count, having a long sighting plane and a heavy barrel that would not wobble was the ticket.
Guns got cut down when they burst at the muzzle from clogging the muzzle with snow or mud.
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