CVA Hawken breech plug question

[ScottK]

Hello! I am new to the forum and have a quick question.

I just picked up a used CVA Hawken in .50 caliber. I'm new to muzzleloaders, but have been shooting for many years and am a pretty handy amateur gunsmith.

Is there anything I should be aware of, or special tool involved with removing the breech plug? I want to get in there to inspect everything and make sure I'm starting out with a fully clean barrel. I'm not sure if the post that holds the nipple is pinning the plug in there and don't want to break anything.

I also want to pull the lock off of the stock to inspect and clean the inside and trigger group. Are there any springs that are going to go flying or any tips I should be aware of while doing this?

I do have some books on order, but they won't arrive until right before Christmas. I'm trying to get this done and squeeze in a range trip this weekend. Any help would be appreciated.

BTW- I know I could shoot first and disassemble later. However, shooting something that I have not personally disassembed and inspected first is just not in my DNA :haha:

Thanks,
Scott

 

[MikeChapin]

No special tools involved but you do have to remover the drum before trying to pull the breechplug. The drum on these rifles are threaded through the breechplug. If the rifle has been shot for any length of time, the drum will require soaking to get it out.

The major question is why pull the breechplug? Unless there are obvious signs of abuse I wouldn't worry about it. If the gun has been cleaned properly and generally well taken care of it should be fine.

 

[ScottK]

If the gun has been cleaned properly and generally well taken care of it should be fine.

Thanks for the reply Mike. I was suspicious that the drum was somehow pinning the breech plug. I'm guessing that some channel locks and a bit of leather to protect the finish are what I need to get both the drum and the plug out?

I bought the gun used from someone I don't know. The problem is that I'm not sure that it has been cleaned properly and well taken care of before I bought it. I'm seeing some gunk way down there that patches are not getting out, and q-tips pushed through the drum are coming out cruddy.

I really want to get a good look down there, and the bore light is not enough to see. The top 3/4 of the barrel, and everything else looks really good so I'm optimistic. I just want to know 100% what I'm dealing with and take good care of her.

 

[brubincam]

-----it is probably in better condition now than after it is removed---swab the barrel and breach plug in a bucket of soapy water--that's all that is needed-----

 

[CZMark]

If you're not familiar with breechplug removal, leave it in. You are likely to do some damage (possibly serious) in your removal attempts.

 

[ScottK]

Hey guys,

I appreciate all of the concern, which is why I mentioned in my initial post that I have gunsmithing skills.

I actually had everything apart with no issues within five minutes of my second reply :wink:

I did find debris and wet, rusty crud primarily in the drum and threaded chamber area. I just finished scrubbing everything out with warm water and Murphys Oil Soap. All of the small pieces and the threaded area where the drum screws in are now getting a CLP bath. Barrel looks good top to bottom!

I'll be onto the lock and trigger this evening. Any tips or advice to that end would be appreciated...

Scott

 

[R.M.]

So I gather that you have the plug out. I wouldn't make a habit of it. These guns are not like the modern ones. The plug is generally not removed, unless there is a major problem.
While it's out, you might consider opening up the powder chamber, or at least polishing it. That chamber tends to be a problem area because it gets crud pushed down into it, and because of it's small volume, can cause misfires.
Another thing to look at is the whole flash path. Make sure there are no burrs or anything to catch crud or patches.Make sure the drum threads don't extend into the powder chamber.
All little thing that can improve the reliability of your piece.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

never mind, just read that u got everything apart

 

[paulvallandigham]

On the left side of the stock, opposite the lock plate, you will find tw9 bolt heads with screw slots. Put some witness marks in the slots and next to them so you can return the screws to the EXACT position they are now in. Then back both out about 2 full turns. Not rap on the bolt heads with the butt of your screwdriver, to put the lock plate free of its mortise. Finish backing out the bolts, to free the plate, being careful to Not drop the plate onto the floor from any height. You will want to have the hammer at the half cock notch when you remove the plate.

Look for Rub marks on the plate's inside. Rub marks are "NO-NOs!" They slow the movement of parts, and put unwanted stresses on parts. To remove the inner parts you first have to remove the mainspring, and, if the sear needs work, the sear spring. Buy a mainspring vise, if you don't have one, to clamp the mainspring at FULL COCK. Then by releasing the hammer, the tension of the spring is transferred to the clamp, and the spring is easily removed and returned to the lock. The Sear spring is removed by loosening the screw that holds it to the lock, and using needle nose plyers( jaws covered in tape, so you don't mar the spring's surfaces) to gently squeeze it enough to free it. There is a tab that goes into a hole in the plate that hold the sear spring in position. The Spring moves only very little, so don't horse it with the plyers.

Now all the screws can be removed from the bridle, to gain access to the rest of the parts to remove. Be Careful of a part, held in by the bridle, called the " FLY". It gets its name because its is so small, it often FLYS off to who-know-where, and you have to find or make a replacement before the hammer will pass over the half cock notch when the gun is fired. When I am taking apart a percussion lock with a set trigger, I remove that FLY carefully, and put it in a peanut butter jar I keep around the workbench just for that purpose. I don't want to lose that sucker- done that before. :shocked2: :blah: :rotf: :idunno:

Some flies have the pivot pin attached to the fly, so you can't put them back in wrong. Others, are just an triangular bit of metal with a small hole in it that fits over a pin attached to the tumbler. THOSE can be put in backwards.

I can't remember which the CVA has. Mark the up side before removing it from the tumbler for safe keeping. If you put it on backwards, the hammer won't drop past the Half cock notch. Please don't ask me how I found that out! :rotf: :idunno: :surrender: :grin:

I use india stones, and fine emery cloth to remove all casting, or stamping burrs from parts that move, and rub those burrs against the lock plate, or some other static piece of the lock. You will be surprised at how much that smooths up the action on these guns.

I have also found that the screws on the inside of the locks presented to me for tuning are backed out and loose, in about 3/4 of the locks I have seen. The shooters simply are not cleaning the locks after each shooting session, and checking those screws. I do. And, to help them, I use either an epoxy( blue compound if its Lock tite), or lacquer, or shellac, or varnish, to hold the screws in place once they are screwed down. Just a small drop on the threads is enough to hold the screws, yet allow you to easily remove them when needed.

When you reassemble the lock, remember to leave the hammer forward, until you have positioned the mainspring against the lockplate, with the nose on the tumbler's horn, or the hook over the fork of the stirrup, whichever the lock has. Then, cock the hammer back to full cock to take the Tension of the spring BEFORE you remove the spring vise/clamp. Always install the Sear bar and Sear Spring Before you reinstall the mainspring. And don't forget to put that fly in the tumbler, before screwing down the bridle again. :thumbsup:

 

[ScottK]

Yep- The reason for the complete disassembly was to make sure I'm starting out clean. I have no plans to remove the BP again.

I went through all of the areas you mention, and found a significant amount of moist, rust colored crud throughout. This was just what I was worried about, although it all cleaned up very nicely. I'm in Oregon and bought the gun locally. Moisture is a big concern here...

Scott

 

[laney1566]

Tell me about it!!

 

[ScottK]

Thanks Paul :thumbsup:

Very descriptive and just what I needed. I'll take a look and figure out what needs to be done. Hopefully a good clean and polish with some Brasso and a dremel/q-tip combo will be all it needs...

Scott

 

[ScottK]

LOL- I've been in Eugene for about two years now. Did the wagon train thing from NY...

 

[Walks Alone]

I'm in Oregon and bought the gun locally. Moisture is a big concern here...

Scott

From what I saw on business trips there at all different times of the year the locals must all have gills. Does it ever NOT rain on the OR coast? :wink:

 

[StewartLeach]

Scott:

Glad you thought your way thru the drum and plug take down. As others note, best not to take down again. Reassemble with Teflon pipe tape or anti-sieze lube on threads.

Barrel Mtce: clean barrel by vigorously flushing with patches, range rod and a bucket of warm soapy water. Murphy's is good, I use 10 drops of Dawn dish soap in a ten quart pail. Remove the nipple, pump the soap & water up and down with rod & patch. Let sit to soak for 10 minutes or so, flush some more, rinse with bucket of clean water. Set barrel muzzle down to drain for a couple of minutes, then dry bore with several patches. Protect bore by wiping with patch saturated with Ballistol, WD40, Eezox, Hoppe's MDL. I leave the gun with rod and oil patch in the barrel for several days, running patch up and down every time I go by.

Lock: a bit of judicious polishing can work wonders on these Spanish made locks. I believe that lock (I have a similar rifle) has a coil mainspring, which can be a bugger to get back in place. Make a tool from a 6" length of 1/4" steel or brass rod. File a flat on one end, tapering from about 1" back to half the diameter. Drill or Dremel a small depression in the tapered end of the rod to just accept the little tit on the end of the mainspring strut. Secure lock plate flat with innards up. Secure in vise, or clamp to edge of workbench. With hammer in full forward position, engage tit in tool, and push forward across tumbler until rotating rear of tool will cause tit to drop into recess on tumbler. WEAR GOGGLES OR EYE SHIELD WHEN DOING THIS! (Yes, friends, I did intend to speak loudly about vision protection.)

Favor Center,

White Fox, in the People's Republic of Boulder

 

[laney1566]

Well, as I have said in the past...WHen I store my gun...I rub bore butter ALL over it..Wood included.....Works fine!!!

 

[ScottK]

Thanks for all of the responses guys. I feel ready to tackle the lock tonight and get this beauty out on the range soon...

 

[Zonie]

IMO, Bore Butter makes a pretty good patch lube but it does a pretty poor job of preventing rust in the bore.

I recommend using Birchwood Caseys Barricade (or Sheath if you can find it) to protect the bore and the other metal parts of the gun.

 

[ScottK]

I've been using Hoppes Elite oil in the bores of C&R weapons that shoot corrosive ammo, with good results. It leaves a very thin but agressive coating that does not attract too much fouling. I normally use CLP everywhere else.

I'm assuming that once you get the corrosive salts out, cleaning and maintenance are pretty much the same as any other rifle, correct?

 

[paulvallandigham]

NO. Just to be very clear. You use soap and water to clean any BP gun. With modern guns shooting smokeless powder, you need to use modern solvents to clean them.

For the few replica guns designed with shallow grooves, and fast twist rifling, you may have lead rubbed off in the barrel shooting conicals. If so, THEN you also will need to use a good lead solvent to clean those barrels. Then, when the lead is removed, use soap and water to remove the salts, and carbon residue left by the BLACK POWDER. OK??? :thumbsup:

After the barrel lock, and outer surfaces of the barrel and stock are cleaned, THEN, and only then can you oil the guns as you would any modern gun. We don't recommend using Petroleum based Oil lubricants in the barrel, however. The oils burn at a much higher temperature, meaning that they do not burn up and out of the barrel when percussion caps, or powder are ignited in the bore. Instead, Petroleum based oils leave a black goo, that is very hard to remove. Use a vegetable based oil, or water soluble oil, in the barrel- like olive oil, castor bean oil, or even Jojoba oil to lube the inside of the bore. If the gun sits for any time, expect any oil to congeal. You can dissolve and remove it by flushing your gun barrel with alcohol before taking it out to shoot. :thumbsup: