CVA St. Louis Hawkins Lock Issue

[Versanaut]

Evening all,

I am looking for help and or advice with regards to my son's Rifle. He recently saved up and purchased a NOS Left handed CVA St. Louis 50 cal flinter. There are a number of items we've run into with this gun, but the biggest one (I think) is the hammer position at half-cock. I want to position the flint in the jaws such that there is a slight gap between the end of the flint and a closed frizzen. Except, with a standard 5/8 flint, the flint is way too long and contacts and holds open the frizzen. So I ordered shorter (square) flints and still they are too long. I've tried bevel up, down, leather, and lead. All with the back cut out for direct contact with the jaw post screw. I hoping to confirm others have seen this and I'm not off my rocker and to solicit your thoughts on the matter.

Symptoms other than an open pan at half cock... Very poor sparking (Could be this config or soft frizzen I suppose... Though a file skirts off the frizzen easily.) and quick wearing out of flints. (20 shots or less)

Pictures attached, and yes, I have noted the vent hole is forward on the pan. Probably why so many flash in the pans.

Many thanks to all in advance.

 

[bang]

Is it possible that either the barrel is too far back, lock too far forward or combination of both?

 

[Ames]

Moving a barrel wont alter the flint strike.
Try changing out the lead holding the flint for leather, which will compress more, and thus move the flint back deeper.
You can also cut or grind a 16th or 3/32" off the back of the flints yourself to have room to bring them backwards.

 

[jdw276]

Is it possible that either the barrel is too far back, lock too far forward or combination of both?

Attached are some pics of my rifle. I have the very same left hand model from deer creek. Your barrel is not hooked into breech all the way it appears. That will help getting the touch hole aligned in the center of the pan if such is the case. I have an RMC vent liner in mine as you can see. About $5 plus shipping from RMC. Very helpful on flash in the pan reduction. Also is a picture on a ruler on my flint that is in the gun for size purposes. Hope thiss helps a little bit.your pics are much clearer than mine are for sure!

 

[jdw276]

Moving a barrel wont alter the flint strike.
Try changing out the lead holding the flint for leather, which will compress more, and thus move the flint back deeper.
You can also cut or grind a 16th or 3/32" off the back of the flints yourself to have room to bring them backwards.

Oops, duplicate post, but it is a my favorite factory gun, first flinter, first lefty, fun to learn and tinker with. It will get much better in a week if you keep at it for sure.

 

[jdw276]

Also, once you get the barrel set in the breech consistently, you can take a small round file and smooth, deepen the pan next to the barrel a bit to direct the pan flash burning powder toward the the touch hole. This will align the pan with the touch hole a bit more.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I too think using a thin piece of leather instead of lead to move back the flint will go a long way to helping the flint position issue.

 

[jdw276]

Comparing the two pics of the closed frizzen, it does appear your hammer is much closer. Basic same size flint from what i can tell. That would be weird unless it is hammer angle? I mean, wouldnt the locks come out of the same jigs for hole drilling?

Your hammer is almost touching the closed frizzen even without a flint.

 

[EC121]

Frizzen spring/toe roughness and geometry can make a hard opening frizzen. Slowly open the frizzen and see where it snaps open. Should open smoothly and snap open about where the flint comes off the bottom of the frizzen. While you are doing that feel for roughness on the frizzen foot and spring. They need to be polished and greased along with the oiling the frizzen screw.

 

[Versanaut]

Good afternoon all,

Thank you all! I don’t believe there is better support by enthusiasts in any other sport/hobby/passion!

I see I have some homework this evening. I’m curious about the barrel position. As it is in place with the wedge, it might not be so easy to move/shim/re-tennon, but I’ll check and report on that too.

I’ve drilled out the vent liner to 1/16th as other folks at the matches mentioned the stock liners were prone to block the flash. I’ll pick up an RMC as well and give that a go.

It’s hard to tell in the picture, but I trimmed the lead to allow the flint to touch the tightening post. I had not considered grinding the back of the flint to allow a better recess. Kinda a pain to have to do that, but I’ll try anything at least once! I’m a little worried about not having enough flint out front to cut on the frizzen. I’ve also considered filing down the front of the jaws to get more flint exposure if needed. I want to hold off on making too drastic a change till I’m sure.

I’m very curious about the hammer. I’ll take a photo in full cock. Might help give some angle reference to y’all. Maybe it was dropped at some point.

I read somewhere the frizzen should open around 2-3 pounds? That sound about right? I have not yet ‘tuned’ the spring/roller to do so. That will definitely help flint life!

Again, thanks to you all and some homework for me!

Cheers!

 

[Huntschool]

OK..... Here is what I think and see.

First, yes, there is a gap between the barrel and the tang fixture. That can be cure by merely bending (putting a rearward bow) in the key to the rear thus pushing the barrel back. I have seen bent keys on orig. guns just for that purpose.

Now on to the real question.... The problem with the lock seems to me to be geometry. If you compare your lock set up at half cock with the pic from jdw276 you will have noticed his flint barely touches the frizzen. I would opine the cock on your gun is slightly bent and likely was as such when put in the kit. Rather then struggle with it why dont you contact Deer Creek and talk to them as they have all the old CVA parts and should be able to send you a new cock, or even lock which may well save you time and headaches.....

Just my thoughts.​

 

[ol vern]

Try turning your flint over with the bevel up, that will move the flint back

 

[SDSmlf]

Question. If you hold just the flint (no lead) in the cock does the flint clear the frizzen at half cock? Ask this because it looks like the piece of lead too thick, moving the flint forward. If that is the case, thinner lead or leather will help. Cutting a slot in the lead or leather so the flint can be positioned touching the cock screw (no lead or leather between the flint and screw) to give more clearance. If you still need more and do not have shorter flints, notch the back edge of the flint so it fits around the screw. Try these steps one at a time. In your photos it also looks like your piece of lead may be too long, but that is not the source of problem.

Also, suggest not removing any metal from the pan or anywhere else without purpose or before you have your lock figured out. Once the lock is working suggest you post more photos of the gap between the tang and the barrel and someone here will talk you through how to correct it if it’s a problem.

 

[jdw276]

Good afternoon all,

Thank you all! I don’t believe there is better support by enthusiasts in any other sport/hobby/passion!

I see I have some homework this evening. I’m curious about the barrel position. As it is in place with the wedge, it might not be so easy to move/shim/re-tennon, but I’ll check and report on that too.

I’ve drilled out the vent liner to 1/16th as other folks at the matches mentioned the stock liners were prone to block the flash. I’ll pick up an RMC as well and give that a go.

It’s hard to tell in the picture, but I trimmed the lead to allow the flint to touch the tightening post. I had not considered grinding the back of the flint to allow a better recess. Kinda a pain to have to do that, but I’ll try anything at least once! I’m a little worried about not having enough flint out front to cut on the frizzen. I’ve also considered filing down the front of the jaws to get more flint exposure if needed. I want to hold off on making too drastic a change till I’m sure.

I’m very curious about the hammer. I’ll take a photo in full cock. Might help give some angle reference to y’all. Maybe it was dropped at some point.

I read somewhere the frizzen should open around 2-3 pounds? That sound about right? I have not yet ‘tuned’ the spring/roller to do so. That will definitely help flint life!

Again, thanks to you all and some homework for me!

Cheers!

Keep us in the loop as you progress. I will be more than happy to provide more pics or stuff i have done. I included the pic of the flint from the rifle so you can see the size from the measurement. this was my first flintlock rifle. Pretty much everything i have done to it i learned from reading rhe comments and stickies on this forum. Mine will shoot 3 shots touching at 75 yards, benched, with 75 grains, 3f, .015 patch, stumpies moose juice. Probably better than that, but is hard to describe. Good luck and let us know the next step after you have tried some of these.

 

[Versanaut]

Evenin' all,

It's been a fun evening so far! First, I'm happy to report that the venthole/pan misalignment was indeed breech engagement. I pulled the wedge and pushed the barrel back and reinstalled the wedge. The barrel stayed put and the vent is more or less aligned. Maybe 1/64th off if I squint really hard.

Back to the flint. This is starting to become quite the science project to find one that fits right. Now, we (13 y/o son) and I, are new to flinters and haven't seen hundreds of flints yet.. but I've handled a couple dozen. Of the 10 fresh flints on hand, only one comes close to fitting. I understand the uniqueness of each flint, but I expected a range of flints to work with minor fitting. Is it normal to have so many not work out?

Most of my flints average the thickness of the 'sawed agate' I have. Much thinner and we start breaking them. To thick or bevel down and the top jaw or flint will contact the Frizzen and half cock. Bevel up and it's REALLY close but the jaw screw almost hits the frizzen first. Have been using Fuller flints from TOW and some of the French flints from OC. (The French ones tend to spark better.. though don't feel as sharp and tend to be thicker)

The lead I'm using is just shy of 1/32. I have some more 3 oz. scrap leather I have used. We were having spark problems so I have been trying the lead with improved success.

The distance from the top jaw screw along the bottom jaw to the frizzen at half cock is 13/16"

Soooo, a picture says a 1000 words? (BTW, I don't want to upset the forum folks.. is it better to link these from a google drive or something rather than upload them?)

IMG3522 - 1/2 Cock
IMG3523 - Full Cock
IMG3525 - 1/2 cock, No Liner,Sawed Agate, BVL down - Contact holding frizzen open
IMG3527 - 1/2 cock, No Liner, Agate BVL UP - Edge does not cut frizzen on swing
IMG3530 - 1/2 cock, No Liner, Thinnest flint. Low strike. frizzen/screw contact on swing
IMG3532 - 1/2 cock, Lead Liner, Thickest Flint. Contact between upper jaw and frizzen
IMG3533 - 1/2 cock, Lead Liner, best fit flint?, Good contact, but MAN it's close.. After a few shots, the jaw will contact.

 

[Versanaut]

why dont you contact Deer Creek and talk to them

Thanks! Fired off an email just a bit ago to see what that might have laying around.

 

[SDSmlf]

Looks like you are making progress. Flint in photo 3532 is just too thick. The one in 3532 looks good, although I believe lead is still too long. Suggest you consider using leather instead of lead. Poor sparking sounds more like a frizzen or lock geometry issue.

Look at attached markup of your photo

Lead, particularly on top of flint is too long and could possibly interfere with flint striking frizzen. Towards the right, appears lead is keeping flint from seating deep into cock.

Below is a photo of a flint with more than 35 shots on it. Still functioning. Second photo shows cutout in leather to allow flint to sit further back in lock when new (or long).

Have never had much luck (aka success) with lead. May want to think about leather once you have sparking issue resolved.

And your lock is obviously on the wrong side of the gun.

 

[jdw276]

And your lock is obviously on the wrong side of the gun.[/QUOTE]

I think it is a beautiful lock, very easy on the eyes, not in the way. One that is built and installed correctly!

That said, in the stickies above all the forums is a how to section of articles. There is an article entitled how to determine the correct size flint for your rifle by rich pierce. This article and a couple of others in there will REALLY help with this and shooting flinters for you.
Couple of those flints in your pics i dont know if they will ever work in our rifles. That said go smaller as flints wear out, chip away anyway so easier to install and work with. Flints are hand made so no two are alike. The flint in my picture had maybe 20 shots so far. Rich pierce made flints and one i used of his got about 80 and was down to maybe 3/8's by 1/2" and i just decided to change it out. Still have it as can still be used.good luck, progress is being made for sure.

Great project for you and your son.

 

[cositrike]

The general problem appears to be lock geometry, but the view with the cut flint, bevel down is nearest. Use a piece of thin leather and cur a half circle out of the back so the flint can sit tight to the screw. If you’re having spark problems, the frizzen may be soft. Is it getting rough on the face?

 

[Stubert]

Looks like the cock needs to be bent upwards. I have a 45 cal. Pedersoli that looked just like your lock. I had to re bend it and shorten the upper jaw of the cock.