Even though this forum has a CW thread I see comparatively few posts on guns like Zouaves, Mississippis, Enfields, Richmonds, Cook & Brother, etc. Was wondering if anyone who owns and shoots these guns would be interested in posting some pics and telling us how you like them. Maybe I'm shooting in the dark, but I know that a few of you out there like 'em and, yes, I'm hoping to buy one some day. In the meantime I'm still shooting and enjoying my .50 cal TC Hawken. Thanks.
CW rifle pics
- Thread starter Zip
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
I've got an Armisport '53 Enfield, and have alot of fun with it. It's pretty accurate with PRBs, and very good with Minies. Now I just have to figure out how to make paper Minie cartridges. I don't have any pics right now, but I'll try and get some next time I go shooting. I traded a Lyman GPR for it, and definitely consider it a fair trade, as I have another Great Plains type rifle.
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 3,370
- Reaction score
- 11
Zip said:
Back when I started reenacting in '74, I bought a Zouave (can't remember the maker)at my local department store for $69. It shot round ball better than Minies. I sold it after buying a EuroArms P-53/3 Enfield in '82. The Enfield was a good shooter, the only problem I had with it was the brass barrel bands. In 1983, I had Blair Taylor build me a Richmond (this was way before the big companies got into the act). It is cherry stocked (my choice) with a 6 groove 1 in 48 match barrel. It also has the low hump lock. I've been thinking about finally making a high hump plate for it. It is a real good shooter. In '84 I traded the Enfield and an original '61 US rifle-musket made from parts from a '61 Springfield and a '61 Watertown contract musket for an early P-H Whitworth. I've only been able to shoot it at 100 yds., so I can't report on how well this particular rifle will do at long range though if it's like its brothers it will do well at far longer ranges. I don't have any good photos handy right now.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
Above is my original 2 Band 'Enfield'. Its immediately post CW, the lock dated 1866, and is Birmingham made. The barrel is by Hollis.
The target by the was is fired offhand (unsupported) at 50m. It's the standard MLAIC course of fire of 13 shots in 30 minutes, best 10 to count. Score is 97. Bull is 50mm dia (approx. 2").
David
Thanks for the info fellas. Nice shootin' David. Hope others feel free to chime in. I'm trying to decide between an Enfield, Zouave or Mississippi. I want for deer/pig hunting in California and just taking something fun/cool to the local gun range.
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 3,370
- Reaction score
- 11
One thing to consider is that the Enfield has better sights. The 2 band short Enfield also has the rear sight farther away from the breech which may help you if your eyes are like most of us over 50.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
....and once you've worked out which has the best sights for you, consider the drop on the stock. Enfields have a straight stock while the Zouave has more drop for example.
David
David
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 3,370
- Reaction score
- 11
You know, as much as I like the Enfield, the Springfield pattern stocks are more comfortable for me to shoot, although the Enfield's straighter stock is better for prone shooting. My problem is, I never shoot rifle muskets prone. The chunk gun I built has more of an Enfield butt profile and it does fine.
Guys what's your thoughts on the musketoons? I want for hunting and the 2 and 3 banders just look like a lot of gun to be hauling in the mountains or thick woods. I could be wrong though. Also, I've always been curious as to how a gun with a back sling attachment in front of the trigger guard carries.
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 3,370
- Reaction score
- 11
I don't have much experience with musketoons (or carbines for that matter), but the shorter barrels will be a little easier in the brush if you're hog hunting. The sights generally are not as good. To give you an idea of the various barrel lengths so you can compare, the Springfield pattern rifle-muskets had 40 inch barrels and the Enfields had 39 inch barrels. These are the long, 3 band type. The shorter Enfield Sergeants (2 band) rifle, the M1862 Remington (Zouave), the M1841 and the M1855 Harpers Ferry rifles all had 33 inch barrels. The Artillery, Cavalry and Sappers musketoons had 26 inch barrels. The Cavalry carbine had a 22 inch barrel. For general use as a hunting arm and/or target shooter, I'd recommend a rifle with the 33 inch barrel and in particular the short Enfield or the M1855 Harpers Ferry. They both have a different buttstock profile, so it would pay to compare them for comfort and sighting. The Zouave which has the same barrel and lock as the M1841, has the same stock configuration as the M1855 and is considerably less in cost.
As for the trigger bow mounted sling swivels, I've never had a problem with the handling. Bear in mind that the forward swivel on the Enfields are attached to the forward barrel band instead of the middle one on the Springfield, so if walking along with the gun slung on your shoulder the butt will be closer to the ground. I've seen some Enfields where the middle band was cut so that the swivel could be hung on it, but if the fit is not just right, the band will be loose. I actually have found that trigger bow mounted swivels keep the sling out of my way better than buttstock mounted ones.
As for the trigger bow mounted sling swivels, I've never had a problem with the handling. Bear in mind that the forward swivel on the Enfields are attached to the forward barrel band instead of the middle one on the Springfield, so if walking along with the gun slung on your shoulder the butt will be closer to the ground. I've seen some Enfields where the middle band was cut so that the swivel could be hung on it, but if the fit is not just right, the band will be loose. I actually have found that trigger bow mounted swivels keep the sling out of my way better than buttstock mounted ones.
I just noticed on David's Enfield pic that the trigger guard doesn't have the customary sling swivel. And, though I can't tell for sure, it looks like the sling attaches farther back. 
Thanks for the advice K-Ranger. I'm sure the 33" 2-banders would be right dandy at the target range and just might wind up going that way. Can't seem to make up my mind from day to day, seeing as how the musketoon would appear handier afield.
You guys have any comments on the various CW gun manufacturers? I understand EuroArms has been bought by Pedersoli. Wondered about Armisport and realize that real Parker Hale guns require finding a 30-yr. old musket in good shape. Although they appear out of my price range and only come in .451 caliber, the Volunteer and Whitworth guns look interesting. But are you limited to shooting those special bullets in these guns?
Thanks for the advice K-Ranger. I'm sure the 33" 2-banders would be right dandy at the target range and just might wind up going that way. Can't seem to make up my mind from day to day, seeing as how the musketoon would appear handier afield.
You guys have any comments on the various CW gun manufacturers? I understand EuroArms has been bought by Pedersoli. Wondered about Armisport and realize that real Parker Hale guns require finding a 30-yr. old musket in good shape. Although they appear out of my price range and only come in .451 caliber, the Volunteer and Whitworth guns look interesting. But are you limited to shooting those special bullets in these guns?
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
The Pattern 1853 Rifle Musket (3 band Enfield) and the Pattern 1858 Naval Rifle (2 band Enfield) had the sling fitting on the trigger guard. Of the other Short Rifles (2 band Enfields), the 1858, 1860 and 1861 had the rear sling fitting on the underside of the rifle stock as mine does.Zip said:I just noticed on David's Enfield pic that the trigger guard doesn't have the customary sling swivel. And, though I can't tell for sure, it looks like the sling attaches farther back.
I don't hunt so will leave others to advise of the merits of the rifles for that purpose.
The Whitworth can shoot hexagonally shaped bullets, but it and the Volunteer shoot perfecty well with cylindrical bullets. Nothing special required.Zip said:
David
David, where do you find a sling long enough to attach at your Enfield's attachment points? Even a 2-bander would seem to have alot of space between the points if the back swivel is behind the trigger guard. Could you post a pic showing the entire gun? I have wondered about buying a 2-band Enfield and installing a sling swivel post on the wooden stock ahead of the gun's toe (like in centerfire guns) but didn't know if there was a sling long enough to accomodate.
You might try to google SSfirearms.com they might have what you are looking for. I shoot a PH 2 band and they had everything I needed.
Fox :thumbsup:
Fox :thumbsup:
Last edited by a moderator:
Tumblernotch
69 Cal.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2005
- Messages
- 3,370
- Reaction score
- 11
I see that David has already answered your question. I'd forgoten to add that some of the Enfield 2 banders had stock mounted swivels. And yes, the Whitworth fires cylindrical bullets just fine. As with the hex bullets, the only extra care, if you can call it that, would be that since these bullets fit pretty tight to start with, a clean bore is important when loading. Don't let fouling build up. I've learned to wipe between each shot and to be sure that the bullet is properly lubed.
As for the makers of these guns, I wouldn't be much help since the last factory made repro I bought was a EuroArms P-53 back in 1982. At that time, EuroArms made some very good Enfields, but they weren't consistent. Mine for example was pretty close in its proportions to an original as well as in weight (just over 9 1/2 lbs.). But some of my buddies in my unit had Enfields that weighed from 10 1/2 to 11 lbs. And some of them had indifferent wood to metal fit. I was lucky to have a magnificent piece, the only thing wrong was that it had brass bands instead of iron. I could have bought some but traded it for the Whitworth before I got around to it. I don't know much of anything about the other companies.
As for the makers of these guns, I wouldn't be much help since the last factory made repro I bought was a EuroArms P-53 back in 1982. At that time, EuroArms made some very good Enfields, but they weren't consistent. Mine for example was pretty close in its proportions to an original as well as in weight (just over 9 1/2 lbs.). But some of my buddies in my unit had Enfields that weighed from 10 1/2 to 11 lbs. And some of them had indifferent wood to metal fit. I was lucky to have a magnificent piece, the only thing wrong was that it had brass bands instead of iron. I could have bought some but traded it for the Whitworth before I got around to it. I don't know much of anything about the other companies.
ResearchPress
45 Cal.
Zip said:
Can't help with US sources, but Peter Dyson here in the UK sells slings: http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/ENFIELD_Accessories.html
I have an original sling on another Enfield and took it to a local market stall belt maker and asked him to reproduce it for me.
Don't have a picture to hand but will try and sort. I'd prefer a sling fitting on the trigger guard, especially when shooting prone and using the sling for support. Fixed on the stock it can give a pull which rotates the rifle.
David
