Cyl. bore pattern density?

[Darkgael]

I finally got around to patterning the Navy Arms 12ga. SXS that I bought last month. I was pleased but I got to thinking - I have no frame of reference so I don't really know whether the patterns were normal or what. They looked good to me - no bird sized holes.
In any case, the gun is bored cyl/cyl. I have read here that 25 yds. is about the distance for use, so that was where I patterned. I also read about using a 3/4 ratio powder to shot loading. I did that (55grs. of 3Fg Swiss and 1 1/8oz. of #5 shot. I had no FFg powder and so reduced the charge a bit from 60 grs.). I used a 0.125" OP card and an OS wad. The patterns averaged: Right bbl - 153 shot in a 30" circle and Left bbl. - 143. That's 80% and 75% respectively.
Is that about right?
Both patterns were quite dense in the middle 20". I will extend the pattern distance next time I get a chance.
Pete

 

[Dave K]

Sounds pretty good to me. Now try a good tin can to shoot at to check penetration.Shoot it at the range you would intend to take game. This is if you are looking for a hunting load. If you can get through a coffee can or something about as stout, you have an excellent hunting load. :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

That should be about right. You should be able to kill pheasants and similar sized upland game birds out to 30-35 yards with those loads. You are pushing it if you try for longer shots. Then, only a hit in the head is likely to bring the bird down. But, #5 shot carries a good bit of energy per pellet, and you are not handicapped by starting with the lighter velocity loads. If you check the pellet energy figures for the shot at 20 and 40 yards in Lyman's Shotshell Reloading Manual, you will find that the #5 shot carries quite respectfully. You do have to put a couple of pellets on the bird, but the shot has the Oomph to bring the birds down. When you are in the Handbook looking at those pellet energy figures. complare them to the data for #6 and #4 shot, then look at your pellet counts per oz. You will really like your choice of #5 when you do.

The only additional thing I would recommend you try is lubing the barrel with moose snot, or wonder lube, AFTER you seat the OS card on the shot load. That lubes the barrel, which protects the shot somewhat from rubbing flats on the sides of the outside pellets, and keeping the shot round helps to keep the pattern more dense. Denser patterns will give you longer yardage.

 

[spottedpony]

In any case, the gun is bored cyl/cyl. I have read here that 25 yds. is about the distance for use, so that was where I patterned. I also read about using a 3/4 ratio powder to shot loading. I did that (55grs. of 3Fg Swiss and 1 1/8oz. of #5 shot. I had no FFg powder and so reduced the charge a bit from 60 grs.). I used a 0.125" OP card and an OS wad. The patterns averaged: Right bbl - 153 shot in a 30" circle and Left bbl. - 143. That's 80% and 75% respectively.
Is that about right?
Both patterns were quite dense in the middle 20". I will extend the pattern distance next time I get a chance.
Pete

It would be interesting to see how it patterna at 40 yards. sounds like your patterns almost reach improved cyl. bore or perhaps a loose modified.

 

[ffffg]

Blacks wing and clay shows a cylinder bore will shoot 80 percent at 20 yards, and at 40 percent at 40 yards.. So your a little better than that, and the consistenecy shows your not getting blowby, with those loads, and that few of shots.. I personally would put a 1/2 inch fiber wad over the nitro card with a large glob of tc lube in the yellow tube under the fiberwad (that will slide down over the nitro card.. .. As you load the nitro card scrapes the bore, the lube softens the fouling when you shoot..the fiber cushion, cushions the shot and keeps the lube from getting into the shot.. it will keep bore in good shape during long shooting sessions, and on hot dry days, or cold weather, which can be the worst shooting conditions.. If your barrel gets fouled and hardens you patterns will go to heck.. Or you can wipe after card as paul recomends.. Either will acomplish the same thing.. Your muzzel inside in either ther case should look shiny, not dark dull dry powdery. My opinion only dave..

 

[Darkgael]

Thanks, all, for the feedback about this idea. I will be patterning at longer distances. I pattern my "regular" shotguns at 35 yds; might as well see what this BP gun does.
Other ideas: I will try the lube after shot idea. How effective are T/C's lubed felt wads for that?
Also, BPI makes a 1/2" hard, waxed, fiber wad - has anyone used that in one of these shotguns? I was/am going to try that next just to see, but I needed a basis for comparison first.
Pete

 

[paulvallandigham]

T/C's felt wads with lube DON'T have enough lube, IMHO, to do the job right. Use a jar of Wonderlube, and slather it onto a cleaning patch set aside for that purpose. Fold the patch after lubing, and rub it together in your fingers to spread the lube evenly through the cleaning patch. Then check. If it needs more, put more lube on it it. You want the barrel well lubed AFTER the OS card pushes over the lube, so that an even coal of lube is down the entire barrel to slide the shot over. That will reduce leading in the barrel to almost nothing, as well as reduce and soften fouling from the gunpowder.

You don't care how much lube the OS card pushes out the muzzle ahead of the shot charge. It doesn't matter. What does matter is lubing that barrel. I happen to like Wonderlube in my smoothbore shotgun and fowler, because after a few shots, the stuff seems to " burn " into the surface of the barrel, and cleaning as well as loading the gun with the tight wads seems to get easier.

The use of cushion wads or even the 1/8" thick OP wads tends to blow the patterns more open, IMHO. That is fine for hunting quail, or grouse over a dog, where shots are fast and close. But for hunting birds that are likely to flush further out, stick with the OS cards.

 

[Mike Brooks]

55gr seems a little light for 1 1/8oz. If your hitting birds and not killing them that will probably be the problem. Can't argue with those patterns though. :thumbsup:

 

[Darkgael]

Mike: No birds yet, just patterns. Grouse doesn't open here in PA until Oct. 13.
I arrived at the 55grs. of fffg as a result of reading some posts here that espoused the 3/4 ratio and 1/1/8oz. gives me 60 grains of ffg. Another post, about pressures, recommended starting about 10% down when using fffg. It was easy on the shoulder. I've no problem with easing the charge up to....?
We'll see.
Pete

 

[bart_anastasi]

Well I have said this more times than I can think but first it seems you have everything well in hand.

TC produces a traditional gun manual that has load data for everything they make. The pamphlet includes load data for their twelve and 56 smoothie. as well.

The info includes both steel and lead loads and the types of game you could use those loads on. Also shot sizes are listed.

Also shot cards wads actualy are discused with pictures included.

I do lube my own wads however and use a 1/4 inch felt wad both over and under the shot. Mix half bore butter and Crisco in a shot glass, put it in the microwave to melt and dip in the hot lube one at a time. Soaks up real fast so a tooth pick holding the wad as you dip it in the lube is a good idea.

I bought all the wads and cards listed along with the felts to try. First patterened the gun with wads alond and it worked so good I never tried any other combination. Went to shoot some trap and next day was shooting over pheasant darn it feels good.

Most of the fellas at the club when I take out the .62 GM do not like to be any where around me when I shoot afraid I am going to set the woods on fire.

Now they seem to think with my one barrel I have a unfair advantage over their semi_brownings and 1100's. Amazing how many guys can fire so many shells in so short a time at so short a distance and miss.

I am no super shooter now but I wait till it is out there and take the shot. Of course I am older and slower now I may be mixing being slow with being smart.
Talking loads 80gr of GOEX 3F and a 90gr load of #5 shot one wad over and one under. I wipe the over powder wad a bit before I put it in to remove some of the excess lube.

 

[Darkgael]

I really appreciate the input. At this point, prior to ordering more BP, all I have on hand is Swiss fffg and fg.
I cannot translate the volume load from Goex to Swiss directly. Swiss is more dense than Goex and will give me an "actual" heavier charge at the same volume. Maybe I'll weigh it out for patterning and just make a note after about volume. Your note, however, gives me a place to start from my initial conservative loadings. Maybe time to set up the chronograph (though I've never tried to chrono a shot charge.) An ounce and an eighth or a quarter at 1100fps or so would be nice.
Pete

 

[paulvallandigham]

To chronograph a shot charge. Make up a long paper tube, that is sealed, put in the shot, and then close up both ends, to make a shot " Bullet ". It will pass over the screen in one piece, limit the chance of damaging the screen, and give you the velocity of any given powder charge with that load of shot.

MV is only a relative thing. Again, check the LYman Shotshell Reloading Manual, and the tables they have for down range velocity, pellet energy, time of flight, etc. You will find that almost all the faster velocity loads lose that extra velocity in the first 20 yards. From experience, you should understand that velocity without choke to compensate, causes patterns to open up wider, sooner. So, the effect of shooting faster loads( whether using faster powders or more powder) is to blow open the patterns sooner.

With a Choked gun barrel, we can do more speed, and still get tight patterns from the action the choke takes on the shot column. That does not happen with a cylinder bore gun.

I suspect that you will be getting 950 fps from that Swiss powder load, much more than if using Goex FFG powder in the same amount. You may even be up hear the 1000 fps mark. But if you look at down range data, you find that the velocity at 30 yards will be still very good, and shooting the #5 shot will give you pattern density and pellet energy to cleaning kill birds.

Most shooters are used to using #6 shot on all upland game, but they are shooting guns with modified and full chokes. They are protecting the shot in a plastic shot cup, and of course firing a modern shotgun. With the smaller shot so treated, we can push it out of the muzzle faster, and the choke will keep it together out to 40 yds, giving us more hits on the bird to kill it than we can expect from using #5 shot, fired out of your cylinder bore gun. Apples and Orange, I am sorry to say, but many of us have spent so many hours learning smokeless powder performance with choked guns, its more than a stretch for us to figure out what works in BP shotguns with NO choke. We constantly want to send the shot out faster, just out of habit. Faster does not give consistent, good patterns with a cylinder bore gun.

 

[Darkgael]

Paul: Thanks for that chrono idea. And thanks for the velocity estimate - "its more than a stretch for us to figure out what works in BP shotguns with NO choke." Ain't that the truth!
Pete

 

[Runner]

60-80 in a cylinder bore 12 using 3f black will take squirrels out to 30-35 yards. 70-90 does a little better on squirrels. If my gun shot it well, I would stick to the 70-90 load for wing shooting where a couple of pellets may need to do the job. That is powder, thick over powder wad or two thin ones, number sixes for birds, and a thin over shot card. I don't use lube at all unless I am loading 7.5's. Also, 3f works ok in a 12, but 2f will give better patterns and very close to the same velocity as 3f does. The recoil in the stouter loads is much better with 2f also.
Have a nice day!~

 

[Croppy Boy]

With a Choked gun barrel, we can do more speed, and still get tight patterns from the action the choke takes on the shot column. That does not happen with a cylinder bore gun.

Does this apply to muzzle chokes only or does it include jug chokes?

 

[Slamfire]

If them northern grouse is anything like their southern cousins, I'd stick with what you have until after grouse season ends. By the time these git to 30 yards, they're on the other side of the tree you can't shoot through.

 

[paulvallandigham]

It probably applies to Jug Chokes, too. YOu have to do the testing with each shotgun. Understand that its very difficult to get 1300fps and faster velocities with any black powder load, particularly in the larger gauges. You just can't build up the pressure required to get that velocity in a 12 or 10 ga. shotgun, without increasing recoil to the point it makes no sense, and the patterns are blown, anyway.