Cylinder rotating counter-clockwise

[M. De Land]

Not going down that rabbit hole again, we know how it works just look at the photos. There is definite spring tension on the hand plunger and the spring is compressed more at the top of the stroke maintaining tension on the hand against the back of the cylinder. Stronger spring equals more tension thus more friction against the cylinder. And yes I do understand leverage and mechanical advantage, I have rigged my share of landing gear and flight controls. So how many Walkers and Dragoons have you set up, how many pocket pistols have you set up, pocket pistols are really bad about throw by. What is your suggested fix for throw by? Do you know what throw by is? Dazzle us with your brilliance rather than baffle us with B.S.

Not going down that rabbit hole again, we know how it works just look at the photos. There is definite spring tension on the hand plunger and the spring is compressed more at the top of the stroke maintaining tension on the hand against the back of the cylinder. Stronger spring equals more tension thus more friction against the cylinder. And yes I do understand leverage and mechanical advantage, I have rigged my share of landing gear and flight controls. So how many Walkers and Dragoons have you set up, how many pocket pistols have you set up, pocket pistols are really bad about throw by. What is your suggested fix for throw by? Do you know what throw by is? Dazzle us with your brilliance rather than baffle us with B.S.

The plunger spring tension is constant and it's position fixed, it must intersect below the top of the hand at battery and as the hand lever rises in the stroke the spring tension is moved closer to the pivot point at it's base therefore the tension in the rise must be reduced. The slight forward angle of the parallel sided chimney is irrelevant.
The only purpose and function of a hand spring is to maintain it's contact with the ratchet tooth.

 

[45D]

A V thread of the same length as the solid steel it supplants is not as strong in shear tension loading as the original on altered arbor. It is still in shear tension at discharge even if it abuts the end of the well because of the joint.

Ok, haven't had any problems with the 1/4" X 28 threads. I HAVE had soft wedges (on older revolvers) get heavily dented by the set screw by just driving the wedge in. Switching to newer harder wedges fixed that problem. At this point, the current setup is sufficient.

It is true when they fail and the barrel goes down range that it is because the top and bottom slot straps gave way not the end of the slot and let the whole end of the arbor go.

I guess you could read anything you want to into the photo but it looks to me like the break happened as close to the end of the arbor as you could get . . . not the middle of the top / bottom "straps" and of course not the "beginning" ( opposite end). It "let go" because it had zero support.

The reason and end fit arbor works is because it eliminates rebound slack not because of harmonics. A vertically fit wedge also aids this aspect by it's snug friction fit along with torque slack reduction aided by the lug pins.

I have factory wedges in all my revolvers and they are working just fine. Apparently the "vertical fit" isn't important for my application. It seems the "linear" fit is most important.

Another strength related point in addition to the arbor end drilling and tapping is that there is more area contact between a well fit wedge and the arbor slot end seat, than there is against the circular diameter of a set screw end. A rectangle seat has more contact area against the wedge than does a circular seat with a chamfered circumference.

I've covered this before but there shouldn't be a "full contact patch" with the edge of the wedge and the forward end of the arbor slot. That would allow the wedge to "walk" itself loose. It is usually a single vertical point which completes the "triangulation" needed to lock the wedge in position. All of the originals I've worked on have never had full contact with the front edge of the wedge.

I should be getting some good load recipes soon for the Dragoons. It'll definitely be interesting.

Mike

 

[45D]

The plunger spring tension is constant and it's position fixed, it must intersect below the top of the hand at battery and as the hand lever rises in the stroke the spring tension is moved closer to the pivot point at it's base therefore the tension in the rise must be reduced. The slight forward angle of the parallel sided chimney is irrelevant.

I answered that in post # 75 above.

You can induce tension increase by tapering the back of the hand (which is a bearing surface now). Again, I do it all the time . . .

The only purpose and function of a hand spring is to maintain it's contact with the ratchet tooth.

You forgot "and limit cylinder speed". Just like what you see in my videos above. ( that would be "braking force")

 

[M. De Land]

Go back and look at the photo. The forward tilt of the hand channel keeps tension on the hand constantly thru the entire stroke of the hammer, that tension is by design a constant force on the rear of the cylinder. Spring tension is pushing forward on the hand towards the cylinder, that doesn't change, the hand rising is a function of the hammer being cocked, spring tension keeps the hand in contact with the cylinder...wait for it... creating friction where it contacts the ratchet. That friction can be used...by increasing spring tension... to help slow the cylinder...gasp...and control throw by. Friction exists in my world, evidently the revolver is a perpetual motion machine in your world with no friction involved. Who put this notion in your mind, some one really pounded that into you. I know it's hard to shake loose an idea that you have held onto forever.. look at how hard you fought about the short arbor... but in this case it's time to let go of it.

It's pushing on the ratchet tooth from the bottom, all the spring is doing is keeping it engaging the tooth. It has no ability to brake the rotation at all even if it did push harder forward on it.

 

[45D]

It has no ability to brake the rotation at all even if it did push harder forward on it.

Except that it does . . .

 

[D Yager]

It's pushing on the ratchet tooth from the bottom, all the spring is doing is keeping it engaging the tooth. It has no ability to brake the rotation at all even if it did push harder forward on it.

You did not answer my questions about how many of these revolvers you have set up, tuned or repaired. Why do you keep sidestepping those questions? You really have no credibility with these elaborate explanations unless you have been tuning or repairing these revolvers and I don't mean just the ones in your safe. We have gone over what happens during the cocking cycle numerous times, shown photos ( thanks Mike) and yet you still want to cling to a false idea. If nothing else you just want argue about something that you don't understand or want to understand. I would think that after being shown and told about this you would at least try some of the suggestions for yourself just to see if we are fulla crap or not. Again how many revolvers have you tuned or repaired? What kind of problems have you run into and what did you do to fix them? I run into something new about 50% of the time. If it gets really weird I will consult with Mike. On rare occasion he is not able to help only on account of not having the piece in hand and my inability to properly describe the issue. Back to your statement above... If there is spring tension on the hand it is going to be pushed forward toward the front of the gun. It is GOING to apply pressure to the ratchet. It WILL slow down the cylinder in it;s rotation. If you don't believe it remove the hand and spin the cylinder, see how long it will spin. Put the hand back in and do it again, does it freewheel or does it slow down quicker than when the hand was removed? Very simple experiment you can easily do and put this B.S. to rest. Report back to us when you do this with your results and conclusions. In other words put up or shut up.

 

[M. De Land]

Ok, haven't had any problems with the 1/4" X 28 threads. I HAVE had soft wedges (on older revolvers) get heavily dented by the set screw by just driving the wedge in. Switching to newer harder wedges fixed that problem. At this point, the current setup is sufficient.


I guess you could read anything you want to into the photo but it looks to me like the break happened as close to the end of the arbor as you could get . . . not the middle of the top / bottom "straps" and of course not the "beginning" ( opposite end). It "let go" because it had zero support.
View attachment 390547

I have factory wedges in all my revolvers and they are working just fine. Apparently the "vertical fit" isn't important for my application. It seems the "linear" fit is most important.

I've covered this before but there shouldn't be a "full contact patch" with the edge of the wedge and the forward end of the arbor slot. That would allow the wedge to "walk" itself loose. It is usually a single vertical point which completes the "triangulation" needed to lock the wedge in position. All of the originals I've worked on have never had full contact with the front edge of the wedge.

I should be getting some good load recipes soon for the Dragoons. It'll definitely be interesting.

Mike

It broke near the end as the elasticity in the upper and lower straps lesson-ed near the solid end, wedge pressure seat .

 

[45D]

Just to reiterate, here's another example of Braking Force. This is one of Jedi Knight's '51's .

I do wish someone could explain to me (other than the obvious) why the dramatic difference in the "before and after" of the cylinder rotation.

Mike

 

[45D]

It broke near the end as the elasticity in the upper and lower straps lesson-ed near the solid end, wedge pressure seat .

And that would happen if there was NO support from the barrel assy.!!!!

You just don't get it . . .

The distance from the front of the wedge (seated against the front of the arbor slot!!!!) to the front of the barrel slot is how far the end of the arbor CAN go without support!!!
WITH support, that distance is eliminated!!!!!
Here's a picture of it !!!!

THAT'S why arbor length matters !!!! In a PICTURE!!!!!

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

You did not answer my questions about how many of these revolvers you have set up, tuned or repaired. Why do you keep sidestepping those questions? You really have no credibility with these elaborate explanations unless you have been tuning or repairing these revolvers and I don't mean just the ones in your safe. We have gone over what happens during the cocking cycle numerous times, shown photos ( thanks Mike) and yet you still want to cling to a false idea. If nothing else you just want argue about something that you don't understand or want to understand. I would think that after being shown and told about this you would at least try some of the suggestions for yourself just to see if we are fulla crap or not. Again how many revolvers have you tuned or repaired? What kind of problems have you run into and what did you do to fix them? I run into something new about 50% of the time. If it gets really weird I will consult with Mike. On rare occasion he is not able to help only on account of not having the piece in hand and my inability to properly describe the issue. Back to your statement above... If there is spring tension on the hand it is going to be pushed forward toward the front of the gun. It is GOING to apply pressure to the ratchet. It WILL slow down the cylinder in it;s rotation. If you don't believe it remove the hand and spin the cylinder, see how long it will spin. Put the hand back in and do it again, does it freewheel or does it slow down quicker than when the hand was removed? Very simple experiment you can easily do and put this B.S. to rest. Report back to us when you do this with your results and conclusions. In other words put up or shut up.

I know your understanding of leverage and mechanical advantage is limited by the incorrect assertions you insist are true. When plainly explained you cannot or will not grasp the obvious.
Perhaps try thinking out side the box and be willing to test/challenge assumptive norms so you can evolve/expand your skill and knowledge.
I've witnessed some poor gun work over many decades done the same way over and over when an improvement was recognizably and readily available but the practitioner never adjusted and kept repeating an inferior practice.
Keep in mind that repetitiveness is no assurance of quality or best practice no matter who is doing so, take Uberti and short arbors for example !

 

[45D]

I've witnessed some poor gun work over many decades done the same way over and over when an improvement was recognizably and readily available but the practitioner never adjusted and kept repeating an inferior practice.

Oh, corrections from Colt are "inferior" ?!!

Keep in mind that repetitiveness is no assurance of quality or best practice no matter who is doing so, take Uberti and short arbors for example !

Oh wait, you say Italian reproductions are just fine even though they DON'T have a correct arbor length . . . shouldn't be a problem then since that's your measure of Colt's builds . . .

But those of us that want them to be correct to Colt's design "don't have a clue" . . .

 

[D Yager]

You seem to forget my background in aviation. Try rigging electro mechanical gear on a Cessna 310. Without a basic understanding of leverage and mechanical advantage you ain't gonna get it done. We've been down this path too many times and you just keep showing us how much you don't know. And you haven't answered my questions as to how many of these pistols you have tuned, set up or repaired. And again with a half baked and useless explanation of why something failed or didn't work. So what is your fix for the "not needed" short arbor, throw by issues on pocket pistols, loose wedges and big cylinder gaps? Both Mike and I have made our knowledge available for those who ask. You on the other hand have contributed almost nothing to the conversation other than being combative and insulting. We know what works and will keep on doing what works despite what you think. Keep it rolling, I just made up another bag of popcorn.

 

[M. De Land]

Oh, corrections from Colt are "inferior" ?!!


Oh wait, you say Italian reproductions are just fine even though they DON'T have a correct arbor length . . . shouldn't be a problem then since that's your measure of Colt's builds . . .

But those of us that want them to be correct to Colt's design "don't have a clue" . . .

Did Colt ever install action shields, cap rakes, wire springs, plunger hand springs, bolt blocks , etc and yet we have discovered some are improvements to performance and worth while.
I think some of your so called "improvements" are complicated solutions in search of a problem and actually depart from more efficient, simple, original design! Colt produced what the public and military required as efficiently as they could and still make a profit with.
I which you would be honest about what I have actually said concerning short arbors .

 

[hawkeye2]

45D there is no video on your clip, only audio.

 

[bpd303]

what I have actually said about short arbors .

Bubba is waiting for what you actually said, without all the razzmatazz word salad & one-upmanship.

 

[45D]

45D there is no video on your clip, only audio.

Thanks , how bout now. I reloaded it. Works for me but maybe only me

 

[hawkeye2]

No go, I tried refreshing and 3 times.

 

[45D]

Did Colt ever install action shields, cap rakes, wire springs, plunger hand springs, bolt blocks , etc and yet we have discovered some are improvements to performance and worth while.

Probably not, action shields are an add on for sure (cause folks won't clean their revolvers), cap posts are a modern fix for a modern problem, wire springs are modern versions of flat springs (coils are better), plunger hand springs came out with Ruger, bolt blocks DID come from Colt's custom shop as well as action stops ( that's where Jim Martin learned that from). The thing that these upgrades DIDN'T change is the timing aspect as well as function . . . which is why FACTORY corrections are STILL the correct fix!!!

I think some of your so called "improvements" are complicated solutions in search of a problem and actually depart from more efficient, simple, original design! Colt produced what the public and military required as efficiently as they could and still make a profit with.

Please tell me what those "improvements" are so we can learn what's "frill" and what isn't.

Mike

 

[45D]

I which you would be honest about what I have actually said about short arbors .

Tell me again what you think about "short arbors". I learned about it 13 yrs ago and it kept my converted Dragoons and '60 Army's from beating the fool out if the wedge/wedge slots !
Corrected the arbor and they've been excellent ever since!!
There's no way a '60 could hold up with 45acp +p's or Dragoons with 24K psi (at this point) ammo with short arbors!!!
Ain't gonna happen!!!

Mike

 

[bpd303]

Thanks , how bout now. I reloaded it. Works for me but maybe only me

I had that problem and fixed it by posting a link to YouTube videos. We probably don't have the correct video codec loaded on our machines. I'll try and find the one we had to use at the PD.