Damascus Barreled Shotguns?

[DelSnavely]

I have 2 SxS shotguns coming from the 1850-1860 era and both are made in London. One is a 20 guage and the other is a 12 guage. Both are in excellent condition and have damascus barrels. The barrels are clean and shiny with no pitting or rust at all. These would be considered pristine or virtually as new. I plan to use these guns and not just let them hang on the wall, but I have a couple questions for those who know.

1. What powder charge of FFFg would you start with when developing the shot pattern and what is the max you would use?
(I use FFFg in all my guns even my CVA shotgun, but I use less than stated by CVA)

2. Will the nipples be a special item to replace and if so, where might I get them?
(Their nipples are in very good condition at this point, but I will eventually have to replace them I'm sure.)

Thanks!
Del

 

[David W.]

I have 2 SxS shotguns coming from the 1850-1860 era and both are made in London. One is a 20 guage and the other is a 12 guage. Both are in excellent condition and have damascus barrels. The barrels are clean and shiny with no pitting or rust at all. These would be considered pristine or virtually as new. I plan to use these guns and not just let them hang on the wall, but I have a couple questions for those who know.

1. What powder charge of FFFg would you start with when developing the shot pattern and what is the max you would use?
(I use FFFg in all my guns even my CVA shotgun, but I use less than stated by CVA)

2. Will the nipples be a special item to replace and if so, where might I get them?
(Their nipples are in very good condition at this point, but I will eventually have to replace them I'm sure.)

Thanks!
Del

Personally, I would not even consider using FFFg in a damascus barrel, period. FFg or even Fg would be safer. FFFg will build up more pessure, possibly blowing your barrelapart, and you with it. I would tend to keep my powder charges on the light side as well.

 

[Britsmoothy]

That is an interesting comment/opinion.
Got any evidence to back it up?

Brits.

 

[ohio ramrod]

FFF burns faster and therefore develops higher pressures than FF. Most rifle shooters use 10 to 15 % lower powder charges with FFF to get the same velocities than FF. Personally it is my belief that the damascus barrels are safe with any REASONABLE charge. Studies have shown that the damascus barrels are actually stronger than the laminate barrels made during the same time period as most damascus barrels were made. Myself I use FF in all of my shotguns from 28 to 12 gauge.Shotguns develope far less pressures than rifles but reasonable care to loading should be taken.I use a load of two dram (55 grain FF and 3/4 ounce shot in my 28 which is considered a light 20 gauge load. And 75 grain FF and 1 %1/4 ounce shot in the 12 gauges.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Higher pressure or peaks earlier?

So when a modern manufacturer states max load and charge how come they don't stipulate powder type as with Pedersoli?

Has anyone seen any old print that came with an old gun that states powder grade?

Brits.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Well Pedersoli does in the manual, though not on the barrell.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot FFFg in a 150 year old gun. There is just no reason to use a higher pressure load.

It's a little surprising that a gun that old would be that pristine. I would check out barrel thickness, they may have been honed since they look that perfect.

The key to the nipples is how tightly they fit in the breech threads.

I have a London gun from the same era that appears to have .225 by 32 nipple threads. But they could use some oversizing, as they aren't as snug as I would like. Much quicker gun than my Pedersolis.

Good Damascus is quite strong, but it's still pretty elderly, and should be treated with due respect. Doublegunshop.com has some people who are very knowledgeable about Damascus, and some great links.

Good luck!

 

[David W.]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot FFFg in a 150 year old gun. There is just no reason to use a higher pressure load.

It's a little surprising that a gun that old would be that pristine. I would check out barrel thickness, they may have been honed since they look that perfect.

The key to the nipples is how tightly they fit in the breech threads.

I have a London gun from the same era that appears to have .225 by 32 nipple threads. But they could use some oversizing, as they aren't as snug as I would like. Much quicker gun than my Pedersolis.

Good Damascus is quite strong, but it's still pretty elderly, and should be treated with due respect. Doublegunshop.com has some people who are very knowledgeable about Damascus, and some great links.

Good luck!

My input on damascus barrels is that there were blacksmiths, and then there were blacksmiths. I have a 10 ga circa 1850 and it is shootable, but I am hesitant on over taxing metal that is 150 years old and trusting the blacksmith followed the proper steps, without mistake and made a good bond between the folding and the quality of steels and irons used. I have not personally made damascus yet, but I have taken a couple of blacksmith courses and have watched a master blacksmith at work. By the middle of this summer, I hope to be able to understand the "how to's" of damascus. Right now, I would be fearfull of my own results.

 

[410-er]

As far as the nipples if they are origional,I'd pull them and use aftermarket.Hate to split or mash them if they are origional.

 

[Jay Gardner]

Del,

Pleeeeez post some picturs of your 20 ga.

Thanks,

Doublegun

 

[M Kuhn]

I have 2 SxS shotguns coming from the 1850-1860 era and both are made in London. One is a 20 guage and the other is a 12 guage. Both are in excellent condition and have damascus barrels. The barrels are clean and shiny with no pitting or rust at all. These would be considered pristine or virtually as new. I plan to use these guns and not just let them hang on the wall, but I have a couple questions for those who know.



1. What powder charge of FFFg would you start with when developing the shot pattern and what is the max you would use?
(I use FFFg in all my guns even my CVA shotgun, but I use less than stated by CVA)

2. Will the nipples be a special item to replace and if so, where might I get them?
(Their nipples are in very good condition at this point, but I will eventually have to replace them I'm sure.)

Thanks!
Del

I have an original damascus 12 gauge and I use 70 grains of 3f with an 85 grain by volume shot load over a 12 gauge circle fly cushion wad and a circle fly card wad over the shot load.
This has been a very good load.
I believe this gun can easily handle 3F as this gun was proofed by me with the same load I use to proof all my originals which is 220 grains of 3F under two patched round balls. My thinking is, although I have never done it I MAY some day double charge my gun but even on my worst day I would never triple charge it.
A triple charge would be 220 grains as 70 - 75 grains of 3F is my standard load in all my original smooth bores.
I've never had one fail with the 220 grain load and two patched balls.
2F would be fine. I personally feel safe with 3F.
I read an article in an 1861 magazine "Godey's Lady's Book" that listed the powders available in "Fine Grain" and they mentioned 2 Fine Grain and 3 Fine grain as Shotgun and rifle powder and a finer grain "Sporting powder" for "Fine Damascus shotguns" I don't think I would go finer than 3F but apparently they did in those days. Whatever grain that sporting powder was it was considered more powerful than musket and rifle powders.
What this article was doing in a ladies magazine is beyond me but that was where I read it and it was printed in 1861.
When I was a kid I remember MANY old farmers who were still shooting damascus barreled cartridge shotguns with modern 1960's era smokeless and they never gave it a second thought.
I certainly don't recommend that but I don't think 2f or 3F is going to blow one up.
I enjoy shooting original guns in spite of the fact that most of my friends think I am abusing a piece of history that should be saved.
My thinking is that in 100 years I will also be a part of that guns history and it wont make a bit of difference to the guy in 2110 who then owns it.
As far as the nipples I would pull them and measure the threads and then take your time and look for some replacements.
If you take good care of the gun the original nipples should last a good long time and give you plenty of time to find some with the original thread size or even have some made at the local machine shop if you have to.
That's strictly my take on it.
I enjoy shooting original guns.
Most wont agree with me on that and that is fine.
We all have different reasons and expectations of what we can and can't or should and should not do in this hobby.
There are a small number who do shoot original guns on a regular basis though so you are not alone.
I think I get more grief from people for shooting my original 58 Remington revolver than my shotguns or muskets though.

 

[DelSnavely]

I was researchin' shootin' these guns on the web and there's sure a lot on both sides of whether or not they are safe to even shoot. The ones on the "yes you can" side site an article or more by a Sherman Bell in Double Gun Journal. The problem with these articles is that they are talking about "cartrage" type shotguns made at the turn of the century and not muzzleloaders made previously and the shells they were using were modern powder shells.

Sherman Bell says in part that at the time the damascus barrels were stronger than the fluid steel barrels. He said that when tested with todays powder both fractured at 30,000 psi, but the fluid steel barrels had a longer fracture than the damascus and that the forged weld in the damascus was not where the fracture happened, but in the steel between the welds, showing that the welds were actually stronger than the steel itself. He called these fractures in the damascus barrels "low cycle fatigue" fractures and they came on slower as the preasure was increased. When the fluid steel barrels fractured it was a "brittle rupture", and ran in a straight line all at once. Both barrel types fractured at the screw hole coming up from the bottom to hold the extractor in place.

This seems to be the main fella who's done this type of testing. He tested 30 barrels, but I'm not sure whether his tests apply to this type of barrel or not, since these have no extractors and are older than the barrels he was testing.

I don't want guns that ain't good for nothin' but lookin' at, but I don't wanna be called "lefty" the rest of my life either... :rotf: Hunting pheasants and upland game is a passion of mine, and what a thrill to be able to take them with a gun that has probably killed the same game 150 years ago.

As for the nipples, I'm pretty sure Dixie Gunworks can fix me up if I send one of each in to them.

I'll post some pics of the guns as soon as they come in, get re-cleaned and inspected closely.


Thanks guys!

 

[ohio ramrod]

My oldest boy has a Bavarian leader shotgun made in the 1880 to 1890's with damascus barrels and he still shoots it using smokeless powder. In fact I just made him a new spring last month for the right hand lock. Can you imagine that, a spring failing after only 120 to 130 years! Yet the barrels are holding up fine!

 

[Dave K]

You will find me on that website as often as here. I do shoot many Damascus/Twist/Laminated shotgun barrels in both cartridge and muzzleloader. I want to perpetuate that ALL of these barrels are unsafe to use. :wink: A good barrel is a good barrel and if used as designed, you should experience no problems. The very same thing can be said about fluid steel barrels. Used as designed and there should be no problems. Actually to me ,early fluid steel barrels are much more suspect than any barrel.

 

[Bretwalda]

Del,

I shoot several original damascus barreled shotguns and fowlers. (I love the 14 ga. ones !)For breech loaders, I use low pressure loads that I have made mysel. All are under 5,700 units of pressure. As for the muzzle loaders I only use Swiss 1 1/2F powder in a one size down loading. For example the 14 gauge I use 16 gauge loading data.

I believe if the gun is in good condition, then it is servicable to shoot!! :hatsoff:

 

[Dphar]

Higher pressure or peaks earlier?

So when a modern manufacturer states max load and charge how come they don't stipulate powder type as with Pedersoli?

Has anyone seen any old print that came with an old gun that states powder grade?

Brits.

It produces both higher pressure and faster pressure rise than FF since FFF burns about twice as fast.

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

modern shotgun cartridges are sold based on " Dram Equivalent" loads of Smokeless powder. If you look at reloading manuals for Shotguns, you will find the Smokeless powder loads given in grains, and some reference table to tell you the dram equivalent in velocity. The Lyman manual gives you the Pressure of the loads listed, and its up to the reloader/shooter to decide which powder(smokeless) he is to use. There are new Smokeless powders coming on the market every year, and without a chart to tell you how they compare with other powders, its a bit dicey to say the least to go experimenting with new powders. Its done, of course, but I believe most reloaders I know rely on published loading data in picking their powders, and charges to use in their shotgun shells.

Choose to use low pressure loads in a Damascus steel barrel has very little to do with how strong the barrel is. I make the decision based on the OLD AGE of the metals used. You just cannot be sure exactly What kind of iron or steel was used to make the ribbons that become that barrel. So, use lighter loads, and be nice to the old gun(s). :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup: Isn't that how you would like to be treated if you make it to be that old??? :shocked2: :idunno: :hatsoff:

 

[Tinker2]

Sherman Bell says in part that at the time the damascus barrels were stronger than the fluid steel barrels.

Yes the fluid barrels were cast steel [Acier fondu] means that it was made out of a cast, molded and not forged, and usually is of a lesser quality (more brittle). Also the “at the time” is based on the fact that the welded steel Damascus is more prone to deterioration over time.

The best of the Damascus barrels are, IMO, stronger then Laminated or cast steel.

This is just my opinion based on what I have read and the 70 or so blown up barrels I have had in my possession at one time or another.

Damascus/Twist/Laminated/cast steel/ Acier fondu shotgun barrels in both cartridge and muzzleloader. ALL of these barrels are unsafe to use.

IMO if it is unsafe to use, then it is unsafe with any load even blanks.

"gun that has probably killed the same game 150 years ago."

I have some people argue with me after seeing all of the blown up gun collection, that their dad and grandfather and great grandfather had used their gun every year.
If later one of those did blow up, they blamed me because I said they were not safe to shoot.



Unsafe to use.
Just my opinion.

Tinker2

 

[Mike Brooks]

Damascus/Twist/Laminated/cast steel/ Acier fondu shotgun barrels in both cartridge and muzzleloader. ALL of these barrels are unsafe to use.

I should have been dead long long ago..... :rotf:
Take a trip to the Nationals at Friendship some time. 98% of all guns shot on the trap and skeet range are original guns with all the scary old barrels you mention above. :idunno:

 

[Tinker2]

I should have been dead long long ago..... :rotf:

:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
I would bet that there are a lot of folks that would agree with that.
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Take a trip to the Nationals at Friendship some time. 98% of all guns shot on the trap and skeet range are original guns with all the scary old barrels you mention above.

Yes, I know all barrels are not created equal, I may have had more blown up guns then most people ever see and I try to error on the side of caution.

You say you have seen a lot of guns that didn’t blow up, well me too.
I have additionally seen a lot that did.

Besides the shooter and those around him, it does no good for the shooting sports when accidents happen.


Respectfully
Tinker2