Damascus patch knife

[Zonie]

First post by Paul R
This is a copy of the original post that started this topic.

"I found this great hand forged neck knife with a 3.3 inch blade. It doubles as a fire starter, throws a great spark. And it fits perfectly in the neck knife sheath from The Leatherman. " (pictures omitted)

Second post by Paul R

"Actually it was made about a month ago by a smith in Hungary and it's based on archaeological findings. You have to go back way further than the 1970's

The handle is forge welded to the blade, they're different materials.

Material: Tang: C10, Blade: 2 x 40 layers of twisted C45+90MnCrV8 "

Third post by Paul R

"The whole striker thing is just an aside that I happened to notice. As you all know, any piece of hardened carbon steel will throw a spark. The handle just fits the hand rather like a striker and if you strike toward the sharp side of the blade, well, lay off the moonshine and enjoy your prize! "

The second and third response was made to comments by Black Hand. (Go back to page one to see the entire discussion).

I see nothing asking if the knife is PC or HC except for the reference to archaeological findings (I assume in Europe).


The technology needed to make a knife like the one shown by Paul was well established long before the advent of a firearm of any kind so IMO, the knife and many more like it could have existed between 1500 and 1865.

I agree, it is not documented so its use in a HC event coupled with a claim that it was there would be wrong.

The OP made no such claim so IMO, responses about it not being PC or HC are a bit uncalled for.

If someone asks if an item is HC or PC then by all means, answer the question. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated by all of our members.

 

[Artificer]

Second post by Paul R

"Actually it was made about a month ago by a smith in Hungary and it's based on archaeological findings. You have to go back way further than the 1970's....."

I would be very interested to find out what are the "archaeological findings" this knife is based on? There are a number of excavated Roman knives and other items that look much more modern and "sort of" what may have been used in the period covered by this forum and under the heading, "Traditional Only - no modern designs."

If this combination knife/fire steel can be documented to our period and general usage of this forum, it would be very enlightening.

If not, then I also believe it is good to mention such an item is not HC/PC, so others won't also buy one while believing it is or might be HC/PC and then finding out they wasted their money because it is not HC/PC and not "Traditional."

If a person wants to procure one knowing it is not HC/PC, nor "Traditional," then that is completely up to them.

It is just that I and many other people I have known over the years, bought something they believed was HC/PC or Traditional, only to be bitterly disappointed later when they found out it wasn't.

Gus

 

[Black Hand]

The OP made no such claim so IMO, responses about it not being PC or HC are a bit uncalled for.

If someone asks if an item is HC or PC then by all means, answer the question. Your knowledge is greatly appreciated by all of our members.

One should not need to ask - many people have no idea and accept the items sold by vendors as proper when they are not. I requested the evidence upon which the OP made his purchase and never got a response.

Another perfect example of repeat something often enough and it becomes fact is the use of the Celtic penannular pin. They are accepted as PC/HC in this hobby when they are far from such.

NO ONE should need to ask for someone to share what they know - often, people don't know what they don't know...

The technology needed to make a knife like the one shown by Paul was well established long before the advent of a firearm of any kind so IMO, the knife and many more like it could have existed between 1500 and 1865.

The technology needed to make an AR-15 or a steam train was also in existence, yet neither were made. The same with armor, penicillin and other items. Technology is a progression based upon previous knowledge - sometimes things just DID NOT exist because someone had not made the mental leap for its development. With this item, I suspect it is a product of the Bushcraft movement of the late 20th century.

This discussion changes nothing - either the person (or someone else) can provide the evidence for their existence & use during our periods of interest, or they cannot. If they cannot, the item should be considered as not having existed and therefore neither PC nor HC. Vide bene that no one has attacked the purchaser or told them the knife should not be used as they want...

 

[Black Hand]

...the knife and many more like it could have existed between 1500 and 1865.

And in 518 years, not one has come to light or been described in any literature...?

 

[Ron LaClair]

 

[thomas]

I agree with you 100% Spence! :thumbsup:

 

[Elnathan]

Here is the likely historical model: https://nordiskaknivar.files.wordp...the-iron-age-danish-specimen-from-burials.png
https://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/tag/viking-knife/

Technically "traditional," just traditional to Scandinavia, not Early Modern America.


On a more general note, I tend to fall into the "HC uber alles" camp myself, but I do think that there are some folks that need to take a deep breath and realize that "traditional" is a kind of ambiguous concept that and just because they are using it in a certain way doesn't mean that everyone else has to. The line has to be drawn somewhere, but exactly where isn't written into the stars and it is possible for honest men to legitimately disagree on that point. Also, reeactors' conventions aren't necessarily the sum of historical inquiry.

 

[Artificer]

Here is the likely historical model:
https://nordiskaknivar.wordpress.com/tag/viking-knife/

Technically "traditional," just traditional to Scandinavia, not Early Modern America.

Very interesting article. Thank you.

I wonder if such a knife (with or without the fire steel grip portion) would have been used in the early Swedish Settlements?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_colonies_in_the_Americas

Gus

 

[Kansas Jake]

Most of my ancestors came to the States from Denmark, but generally too late for muzzleloading time frame as far as I know. Now the but to this. If one of them had been here in an earlier time frame they could have likely carried one of those knives, but from the short skim I did of the article it would have been a great grandma rather than grandpa. :grin:

I guess I could use one though and claim to be HC. :blah:

 

[Elnathan]

I'd be astonished if the settlers of New Sweden didn't bring their traditional knives, whatever patterns those might be, with them. I don't know of any evidence that they continued using them after the colony was captured and they became part of the British Empire and merchantile system, though.

I did run across an offhand comment in a biography of Daniel Boone which implied that the Scandinavians (probably mostly Finns, not Swedes, I believe) retained their identity as a distinct cultural group up to the mid-18th century, which raises the faint possibility that they may have retained some distinctive equipment, though I doubt it. Unfortunately, the author didn't give a endnote for that particular comment, and I haven't yet run across anything to substantiate or disprove it...

 

[Kansas Jake]

Most of my ancestors came in the 1870s. The generation that came then continued to speak Danish among themselves and attended churches with services in Danish and that continued into the 1900s until there were some mergers with larger denominational organizations. I suspect the generation born here which would include my grandparents quickly adopted more American ways, clothing etc. while still speaking Danish in the family. Earlier immigrants probably were more closed. I would guess the civil war did a lot to break up the closed communities.

 

[Black Hand]

We must note that while the handle is integral, it is not a firesteel despite the coincidental resemblance. Even the text mentions the handle was made of iron because it was less laborious than adding a wood handle.

 

[Cowboy]

I like it my friend! I don’t know if it’s PC/HC correct or not? I personally couldn’t see my self using it as a striker but would definitely use it as a patch knife.

Anyway, I do like the looks of it and it’s still nice to know it’ll throw sparks as a striker if need be. I want one!

Thank you for sharing your knife with us my friend.

Respectfully, Cowboy

 

[thomas]

Very nice knife.