Damascus (Twist) Barrels- Who shoots them?

[Jason Lewis]

Damascus are more dangerous with more bursts due to a obstruction than black powder. The worst offender is snow, and soil in the muzzle this is followed with a close second to using thin card wads which often are bypassed by the ramrod and left on the barrel wall which when fired becomes a obstruction. To explain my meaning enclosed is a image of a burst Damascus barrel caused by using too thin card wads .
Feltwad

Burst Barrel

I believe they burst this way simply because of construction. Barrels made for blackpowder get considerably thinner, faster towards the muzzle than their smokeless counterparts. Hence when a twist barrel bursts it’s up about midway and not at the much thicker breech. But that’s just my thoughts on it.

 

[Jason Lewis]

 

[Jason Lewis]

13ga English, started its life out as a 14ga until someone reamed it a long time ago. 1 1/4 by volume of 1.5F olde eynsford and lead 6

 

[Felix the Cat]

I shoot a 16 bore Bland and a 12 Bore Armstrong damascus breechloaders.. both are nitro proofed and, provided you stick to light 1oz loads are fine. I was out last Saturday and dropped twenty pheasants with the 16, which, for a 150 year old gun is not bad I think!

One of the problems with laminated barrels was corrosion happening within the laminations, so you need to be careful about pitting, especially near the chambers. Pits, laminations and corrosive primers are not a good combination. I would be wary of shooting one that had any significant pitting..

..but yes, I suspect there was more than a bit of scaremongering to move on the gun trade. Manufacturing costs for solid barrels dropped tremendously in the 1900s and I would think they were a nice little earner, providing you charged Damascus prices! There is a theory that laminated barrels also fail gradually rather than catastrophically.. but yes, obstructions in the barrel will do it every time.

 

[Eterry]

13ga English, started its life out as a 14ga until someone reamed it a long time ago. 1 1/4 by volume of 1.5F olde eynsford and lead 6

Jason... that's a NICE Brace of Birds and a lovely "Two-Row"

 

[Feltwad]

Most of the percussion guns of the Victorian period by top gun makers including the provincial makers sold their guns with a mahogany or oak case.
Feltwad

 

[Rifleman1776]

If you came across a Twist barrel smoothbore in reasonable good condition would you shoot it? Who out there shoots them currently?
Why or why not ?

My answer is 'yes'. BTW, there is a very skilled ml gun builder in Misssouri that looks for old (percussion or breech loading) shotguns. He takes them apart then rebuilds the barrels into beautiful ml shotguns. If interested pm me and I'll give you his name. I doubt his guns come cheap.

 

[Jason Lewis]

I think we know the same gunsmith, no his work isn’t cheap but he is very reasonable.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Yes, I too use Damascus and stub twist barrels, and very little else.
"Damascus" got a bad rap with the cheap "Sham-dam Damascus" imitations.
True and good quality Damascus like the British two and three stripe, is as strong as any barrel.
When (Greener was it?) did the tests, it was actually a set of three -stripe Damascus that came out on top as the very strongest, followed by a set of Whitworth fluid steel tubes.
These tests were destruction tests, and going down the list, fluid steel, drawn and various Damascus are all mixed up, with no one type giving a better showing than any other.
True, even mechanical twist Damascus has more Opportunity for hidden flaws, and that makes the proof requirements sense.
Some found that when firing vast amounts of cartridges, (Marquis of Ripon being one) steel barrels gave them a terrible gun headache, whereas Damascus bothered them not at all.
(The above was when sportsmen of this calibre were firing maybe 15 -20,000 cartridges a year.)
Charge -wise, later proof marks will give the charge, such as 1 1/8 Oz. for a 12 gauge, more if for wilfowling, so no need to limit ones self to very light loads. With a M/loader, it has always been the shoulder that was used to determine the best load!

Richard.

 

[8 BORE]

Here in Missouri we shoot a lot of trap, skeet, 5-stand and sporting clays with muzzle loading and black powder cartridge shotguns. Our members and guest shooters have 410 thru 4 bore muzzle loaders. We have a great time.
Its also a great spectator sport

 

[Feltwad]

I believe they burst this way simply because of construction. Barrels made for blackpowder get considerably thinner, faster towards the muzzle than their smokeless counterparts. Hence when a twist barrel bursts it’s up about midway and not at the much thicker breech. But that’s just my thoughts on it.

Yes a lot of original Damascus sxs percussion shotguns are thin at the muzzle end but most of this is due too ramrod wear .
Feltwad

 

[Newtire]

I read 2-part series by Sherman Bell in "The Double Gun Journal" on this topic entitled, Finding out for Myself. He speaks of m/l guns but a lot of breech-loaders mentioned so I won't go into detail. The pressure testing was a real eye opener. Google it up and enjoy the reading on this subject.

He did extensive pressure testing and actually shoots and hunts with Damascus barreled guns. One of the reasons for going to the using of fluid steel was the expense of making Damascus and the lack of people who have the know-how. I have used all sorts of loads up to 1-1/4 oz. In both twist and Damascus 13 ga. up to 10 bore guns as well as some Belgian branded guns. I have several N.R. Davis muzzleloaders made using twist steel that I used Dove hunting. I had to stop at 7 doves as the other shooters were anxious to get home after bagging their limits of 10 each with their breech-loaders. I managed to knock em down just fine. I used a "square" load of 1 oz. of #7 over the same measure of Alliant Black MZ. I used a .135" hard card over the powder and a couple sections of another hard card over the shot. No shot cup after the initial loading and it did just fine. I use this same load only #7-1/2 shot for clay birds. My guns have no choke either but the shots were mostly close in. If I'd have only known the real story back in the mid-sixties when they were practically giving away any Damascus barreled gun!

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Newtire,

Your findings re effectiveness, and no 7 shot echo my own experience. Also the "Square load".
Mind, I have one old single 14 bore, maybe 1840, and it shoots beautiful patterns for ducks with 1 1/4 oz of number 4 (British size, so about #5 here) This was before lead ban, and not used it since.
If we look at Hawkers recommendations as to charging a gun, we see that light loads were not as common in His day.
(from 14 to 22 bore, 1 1/2 ounces, and the same measure full of powder for instance)

Very best,
Richard.

 

[alseth]

Been using a British 14ga sxs for 4 or 5 yrs now, I keep my loads at 1oz . Works great on rabbets, grouse, and pheasants

 

[Eterry]

What is the difference in a Twist vs a Damascus vs a Laminated steel barrel? The Shotgun I just got has a "Fine Laminated Steel" barrel.

 

[Felix the Cat]

What is the difference in a Twist vs a Damascus vs a Laminated steel barrel? The Shotgun I just got has a "Fine Laminated Steel" barrel.

The terms you use are roughly interchangeable.. they all refer to barrels which were made from laminated, folded steel hammer welded around a mandrel.

The original term "Damascus" was used to describe wrought iron and steel coming into Europe from the middle east, usually via Damascus. This forged steel was produced in Persia and Bengal and was known a Wootz, and was much prized for making sword and knife blades. Latterly techniques were developed, mainly in Belgium, for forging this type of material into barrels.

Laminated barrels are all unique, however there are a number of recognisable styles that were given names such as "stub twist", "double twist" "triple twist" etc. Barrels made from old wrought iron horse shoe nails were much prized. Laminated barrels could be made much thinner than the equivalent forged single seam or "skelp" barrels that were used for military muskets, however they were time consuming and expensive to make in fuel and skill level.

The technical problem with steel before the late 19th C was that it was impossible to heat steel up to casting temperature because there was nothing that would contain it at the temperatures concerned. Benjamin Huntsman developed crucibles that would stand one or two firings, but never held much material. Latterly developments in furnace design by the likes of Whitworth, Vickers and Bessemer made it possible to cast steel in larger billets and produce cheap and reliable bar stock that could be bored to make barrels.

Before this, the best the furnace technology could do was to produce a bar of steel that could be heated to forging temperature and worked by hammer. The Japanese developed a roughly similar system for making steel for swords (tamahagane)

 

[vintovka]

There are other reasons for not firing damascus. I have a 11 bore double which i regularly used in ML trap shoots for a couple years in the 90's. Very ornate and accurate engraved with platinum, gold and silver inlays. Stopped shooting it when a club member said it was a super rare Nathaniel Whitmore presentation piece. Whitmore made presentation guns for US Grant and other historical persons. Been in a vault ever since and will try to post pics..

 

[Eterry]

There are other reasons for not firing damascus. I have a 11 bore double which i regularly used in ML trap shoots for a couple years in the 90's. Very ornate and accurate engraved with platinum, gold and silver inlays. Stopped shooting it when a club member said it was a super rare Nathaniel Whitmore presentation piece. Whitmore made presentation guns for US Grant and other historical persons. Been in a vault ever since and will try to post pics..

I don't think I have that problem...

 

[Newtire]

If I got it right, I think that Damascus involved making strips of steel from wound up wires (like making strings up into rope) and then pounding that into a tube shape around the mandrel. I found a clip that I will post soon as I get on my other puter. The Damascus has little starburst patterns distributed throughout whereas twist is just twisted with one continuous seam spiralled around the mandrel. As far as my loading technique of using only a hard card and no cushion over the powder, I picked that up from another board from a book written a few moons ago. Idea is, the cushion captures shot which imbeds into it and, in doing so, "steals" shot from the pattern. Guy's name was V.M. Star (or maybe Starr?). Anyway I am a m/l shotgun convert for sure.

 

[Newtire]

Newtire,

Your findings re effectiveness, and no 7 shot echo my own experience. Also the "Square load".
Mind, I have one old single 14 bore, maybe 1840, and it shoots beautiful patterns for ducks with 1 1/4 oz of number 4 (British size, so about #5 here) This was before lead ban, and not used it since.
If we look at Hawkers recommendations as to charging a gun, we see that light loads were not as common in His day.
(from 14 to 22 bore, 1 1/2 ounces, and the same measure full of powder for instance)

Very best,
Richard.

Here's a link to a treatise by V.M.Starr

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/starr.html