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Deer skin patches

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Artificer said:
I was also a skeptic on the old accounts about using a leather patch, BUT prior to his passing, LaBonte wrote he had been using brain tanned deerskin for patching for some time and it worked extremely well.

Gus

With the sincerest respect for our recently departed forum member, LaBonte, AKA Chuck Burrows,
I found the post I referred to earlier.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1423706/

Chuck, you will not be forgotten and your knowledge continues to help us all.

Gus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yeah, he was quite the guy. We corresponded for years on this and many other topics, but I just never quite got down to see him from our place in the Rockies a few hours north. My sincere loss.

He'd kind of been there and done that on techniques, materials and research. Hard act to follow for guys with fingers molded to keyboards and only parroting what they read on the silver screen.

RIP LaBonte. You'll be missed.
 
If you follow the link provided by Artificer, look at the entire thread and find my post, there are 4 primary quotations about leather patches. Here are a couple more.

Practical Instructions for Military Officers, for the District of Massachusetts”, Epaphras Hoyt, published 1811
"A patch of thin linen cloth or soft milled leather, saturated with grease, must be slightly stitched round the balls, with small thread which will separate when discharged from the piece."

and...

"The balls attached to the cartridges are enclosed in a linen or milled leather patch well saturated with grease ;"

Remarks on Rifle Guns" eleventh edition by Ezekiel Baker. gun maker to his Majesty, 1835
"After you have loaded the piece with powder then put the greased patch of leather, calico or soft rag provided for that purpose on the end of the barrel,"

Also, copy of a target shot at 300 yards in 1800, caption says in part,

"...balls that weigh 14 1/2 to the pound, four drams of powder, the balls were placed in a greased leather patch".

Spence
 
As we can see from the cited sources the practice of using leather patches is hc/pc.
But just because they did it that way doesn't make it a good idea.

You can go to the fabric store and purchase uniform thickness cloth by the bolt. Why on earth would you opt for a product that will inevitably have variance?

It was stated you can use leather patches more than one time...why would you do that? The second shot of that patch will be different than the first shot. The patch will be different than it was before fired out the muzzle of your gun.

Leather may work, but there is no way it fits with in my loading regimen. I was taught by Dutch's writing to go with uniformity in all things when loading these guns. Leather is too variable.
 
Some of us are more interested in doing things as the old boys did them than in making the guns perform to 21st.-century standards. I find it very interesting to wring best performance out of a historic loading, whatever that is, more so than being able to put all the balls in one hole.

Spence
 
Would I go out and buy leather specifically for patching? Heck no. It's a lot more expensive.

But since I have bags of scraps hanging around that need either used or trashed, I kinda get a kick out of doing it just like my ancestors. No sense going to the store and wasting money (their view) when you have something in abundance that works as well as you need it to.
 
I've experimented with many historic wads and patches, and when I got interested in shooting with leather patching a lot of years ago I had no appropriate leather. I figured brain tanned would be best, being so soft and compressible, but I didn't have any of that, or an inexpensive source. I decided to try an auto chamois/shammy. It seemed ideal, soft and compressible, pretty consistent thickness, and it absorbed grease readily. I bought one, it worked well, and by the time I had shot it up I was convinced leather patching is a viable option.

Back at that time, auto chamois was real leather, nto imitation plastic stuff as most are today.

Spence
 
I have to admit I used to be a huge skeptic of leather patches until I read of LaBonte's experiences with brain tanned deerskin patches and that in modern rifles where we most probably use tighter balls in our rifles than they did in much, if not most of the historic period. Yet, I do not have anywhere near the experience with brain tanned buckskin that LaBonte and other forum members have.

Add this with what we now know in the 18th century it was not only possible, but common for gunsmith's to make barrels that only varied at most .001" to .003" throughout the entire length of the barrel and how close they could make molds for the balls to fit the barrels.

Add to this Spence's rather extensive list of documentation for leather patching.

I have searched and searched for an original method and documentation to explain how period gunsmiths matched the ball size to their rifle barrels. I have yet to even read a tidbit on how they did it and don't know if it was ever written down. The method could not have been extremely technical or they could not have done it in all the small gun shops in the period. They were also limited by the technology they had.

I have come up with a plausible explanation that was entirely possible with period tools and technology, though it is only speculation on my part they did it this way.

I think they wrapped/glued linen paper around the ball or blank mold cherry and tried the fit in the muzzle in the case of the blank mold cherry and pushed the paper wrapped ball through the entire smooth reamed barrel, to ensure it would fit all the way down the barrel. The paper wrapped around the ball would not overlap on top of itself, though. Then they rifled the barrel. Linen Paper was thicker than our modern wood pulp paper, say .005" to .007" thick. Double that and you get an added .010" to .014" over the ball diameter. Now the paper probably would have compressed a little in the bore, but not much. Add another .001" to .003" open space reamed into the barrel or the ball/mold cherry blank made that much smaller, so the ball with paper patch could be run smoothly down the barrel. Using this method, they could make the ball size .010" to say .015" under bore size and with the added open room of the rifling, a greased brain tanned leather patch would work well.

Gus
 
I got a side of pig suede for a lining project, but it turned out to be the wrong color. Sat around for about 5 years, and I finally hacked off a piece to try for patching.

It's a little thinner than typical deer, but in fact it works quite well in a couple of guns that demand thinner linen patches. It just occurred to me that I ought to try doubling it and using it in more guns. Sure no sign of tearing or blown patches, so I don't see why not.
 
LaBonte's, Spence's and your "experimental archeology" experiences (as well as some others on the forum) have shown it possible to use leather patches even with some of our modern tighter ball to barrel sizes.

Couple that with the historic documentation, I know I won't ever argue against leather used for patching again.

Gus
 
Artificer said:
... I know I won't ever argue against leather used for patching again.
Be easy in your mind, Gus. The final decision as to whether the old boys really did it doesn't depend on your believing they did. :haha: :haha:

Spence
 
:rotf: Yeah, I know. :haha:

However, as you well know, there are myths and legends from the period that continue to be believed and written, even when they can not be duplicated or have been proven wrong.

Gus
 
Artificer said:
However, as you well know, there are myths and legends from the period that continue to be believed and written, even when they can not be duplicated or have been proven wrong.
Myths and legends? On this site? Come on!! You've gotta be kidding me. :hmm:

Spence
 
We know cloth was used and it's a lot easier to find then leather in old works. So cloth is hc, and it's what I use. A good brain tan runs a hundred to a hundred and fifty dollars. It's a lot more dear then linen or hemp at twenty to twenty five a yard. Few of us shoot linen. I shoot cotton.
Still, although curiosity killed the cat, satisfaction brought him back :haha:
 
I think leather was used a lot for patching material around the world in less developed areas for hundreds of years. But we are talking about early America here.
Why is it so hard to believe animal hides were used, and quite often, for patching?
Cloth was often in short supply, and expensive; so much so that being a rag merchant was a common occupation.
In some locales,getting decent fabric, let alone proper thickness, would have been impossible.
Animal skins, on the other hand, could usually be obtained easily, be they deer, squirrels, raccoons, badgers, groundhogs, etc.

Having used leather patching myself, I can say that while it has not always given me the very best accuracy, it is at least functional, and often performs very well; certainly good enough for hunting and fighting.

The thing that makes leather in some ways better than fabric is it's compressibility, which makes it more forgiving of ball diameter-it expands to grip a smaller ball well enough, and compresses down equally well when used with a larger ball.
This compressibility also makes the actual thickness of the leather less critical when used with a given barrel and ball combination.

I havn't tried it myself yet, but I would not be surprised that whatever animal hide was used need not even be tanned.
If a person shot a squirrel and skinned it, scraped the hair off, then rubbed your grease or oil of choice into it within a few hours, would this keep the hide pliable enough to be used for patching for a few days?

Hmmmm, idea for an experiment.
 
None of the experts have mentioned chamois skins greased. They seem to be about the same thickness and are not all that expensive . Could a chamois skin be used be used ?
 
mudd turtle said:
None of the experts have mentioned chamois skins greased. They seem to be about the same thickness and are not all that expensive . Could a chamois skin be used be used ?

Spence already mentioned using real leather chamois in this thread and other forum members have mentioned in other threads that they use chamois as well.

Gus
 
I like a tight PRB and really can't see how deerskin could be loaded w/o using a smaller RB....and I'm not willing to change.

No doubt when on the frontier, if one ran out of cloth patches, deerskin could have been used, but in a pinch, a small part of a cloth shirt or pants would have been handier and would have loaded easier.....Fred
 
"No doubt when on the frontier, if one ran out of cloth patches, deerskin could have been used, but in a pinch, a small part of a cloth shirt or pants would have been handier and would have loaded easier.....Fred"

Everyone had a shirt tail, how many folks wandered around with deerskin ready to go for loading?????
 

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