Denim vs Drill. Thickness after washed.

[Skychief]

For what it is worth...

I bought 3 denim samples and a pocket drill sample at the fabric shop today.

Before washing and drying, I measured each fabrics thickness.

After washing and drying, the denim fabrics measured as they did beforehand.

The pocket drill gained 2/1000". Going from .016 to .018.

I ran this test for my own information, but also, because I've read conflicting reports of some fabrics gaining thickness (and a few reports of losing thickness) after a wash and dry.

Is it likely that all denims neither gain nor lose thickness to a wash and dry?

Also for what it is worth the denims were .013, .013, 016.

The pocket drill started at .016 and came out of the dryer at.018.

Just something to chew on when looking for the "right" sized patching material possibly.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[necchi]

Ya, fabrics will do that with a soft measurement,
What matters is the "crushed" measurement. meaning when you measure you squeeze the calipers or micrometer hard to fully compress the fabric.
That's actually what happens when you use the fabric as patch.
Putting the fabric on the muzzle, putting a ball on top and mashing the whole works into the bore squeezes the fabric a lot!

You'll find the "crushed" or "compressed" measurement does not change after washing.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good on you for testing.
However, might be a bit misleading. :shake:
There are many different types of 'drill' cloths. Hard to make broad brush statements about drill for our, or any purpose.

 

[hanshi]

Yes, it does need to be "crushed" hard with calipers or a mic. For instance; I use either mattress ticking about .018" compressed or, more likely, cotton canvas duck, .030" soft and .022" compressed. Old jeans are about .024" compressed.

One thing that in my opinion is important but overlooked, is fabric toughness. canvas duck and denim are tough. Neither will burn nor acquire cuts/holes during firing. Even mattress ticking will get burns and scorch marks in some loads and in some rifles; but not denim or canvas duck. The duck, when picked up after firing is still completely white and looks unfired; only the edges are frayed.

 

[Skychief]

Ya, fabrics will do that with a soft measurement,
What matters is the "crushed" measurement. meaning when you measure you squeeze the calipers or micrometer hard to fully compress the fabric.
That's actually what happens when you use the fabric as patch.
Putting the fabric on the muzzle, putting a ball on top and mashing the whole works into the bore squeezes the fabric a lot!

You'll find the "crushed" or "compressed" measurement does not change after washing.

Thanks necchi for mentioning this, as I failed to in my original post.

These measurements were all crushed measurements.

Skychief

 

[necchi]

Ok, just keep one thing in mind.
The measurements you make pertain only to you and your cloth.
My technique with caliper or micrometer may be different then yours and that's Ok, it doesn't matter.
What matters is that you experiment with fabric that you measure.
Make sense?
If your using the secret papers from Brother Dutch,, then don't be afraid of thicker fabric,, just adjust the lube.
I have found denim in the .021-.022 range and lube 1-6/1-7 to be very reliable.
But again,, those are my measurements. The key is to do it the same every time so that changes can be noted.

 

[Dr5x]

Nechhi,

My big surprising discovery was that no matter what the thickness of the fabric you buy, when compressed with your micrometer by exerting a wee bit of extra pressure they will show different thicknesses. That is the measurement to pay attention to.
Some .018 fabrics will compress more then so .015 fabrics. /
I don't recommend calipers because they will probably bend when pressure is exerted, thus giving you a false reading.
Adjusting the amont of Dry lube to accommodate different thicknesses has neveroccured to me.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

I just thought of this comparison.
I have always compared shooting an off balanced ball with driving down the highway with a wheel weight missing where the driver becomes aware of the wheel with the missing weight thumping and pounding away.
About 20-25 years ago i was engaged in weekly or more often in games of Pool..
As a joke I purchased an intentionally made cue ball that had a weight about a half inch off center.. Try as you might, you could not shoot that cue ball in a straight line The spinnig ball would wonder off to the left or the right, never going where you wanted it to go.
So to with the lead ball with an air bubble on one side, making the other side heavier causing the ball to fly off on some direction quite unexpected.

I have long held that Swaged balls by Hornady will usually have up to 22 balls out of a hundred that off weight to the extent of resulting in a flyer.. I do some on line coaching and recently noted a report that Speer balls may be even more off balance than the Hornady balls.

It's the details like that can ruin your group or in some cases even cause you to miss your deer.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

Skychief,
I think they all stay the same.
How are you measuring these fabrics?
With a micrometer, bring it up snug like you are supposed to when measuring hard objects like piston rings,
OR
After bringing the mic up snug then holding the barrel of the micrometer between thumb and forefinger tips , as tightly as that grip will allow, exert additional pressure to collapse the thickness caused by the weave?

The fabric when squeezed that extra bit will tell you how thick it will be when crushed between ball and barrel wall,

That is the measure you want to do your figuring with.

Washing and then drying the pocket drill made it fluffier and that's why it seemed thicker when measured in the same way you would measure sheet steel.

That's the point I have been trying to make foe 35 years.

DutchSchoultz For what it's worth was worth a lot to me.

 

[Skychief]

Ok, just keep one thing in mind.
The measurements you make pertain only to you and your cloth.
My technique with caliper or micrometer may be different then yours and that's Ok, it doesn't matter.
What matters is that you experiment with fabric that you measure.
Make sense?

Yep. Simple enough.

No different than having a certain rifle shoot best with a measurement of 85 grains of 3f Goex, thrown from MY measure. Perhaps it's actually throwing 81 grains, maybe 88. It matters not, so long as it's measured from MY measure the same same each time.

Simple.

I'm not sure what such things have to do with my post here though.

The point of my post was that the cotton drill gained thickness after washing and drying, while the denims did not. Crushed measurements were taken before and after with like pressure on my caliper. Measurements were taken in several locations of the fabrics in question.

Simple enough to take it for what it's worth. Just an observation passed along. :idunno:

 

[Skychief]

Skychief,
I think they all stay the same.
How are you measuring these fabrics?
With a micrometer, bring it up snug like you are supposed to when measuring hard objects like piston rings,
OR
After bringing the mic up snug then holding the barrel of the micrometer between thumb and forefinger tips , as tightly as that grip will allow, exert additional pressure to collapse the thickness caused by the weave?

The fabric when squeezed that extra bit will tell you how thick it will be when crushed between ball and barrel wall,

That is the measure you want to do your figuring with.

Washing and then drying the pocket drill made it fluffier and that's why it seemed thicker when measured in the same way you would measure sheet steel.

That's the point I have been trying to make foe 35 years.

DutchSchoultz For what it's worth was worth a lot to me.

Greetings Mr. Schoultz!

How are you Sir?

I took crushed measurements with calipers.

Would not fluffier equal thicker?

My calipers say so.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Skychief]

If anyone would like to replicate my test, in the interest of abolishing conjecture :haha: , the fabrics came from JoAnn fabrics.

Drill 40 Unbleached. #00683532

Denims.............. #11771623
.............. #11771649
.............. #11771615

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Dr5x]

I am not surprised that your calipers measure fluffy as thicker..

Appaerntly you do not have a micrometerI have yet to see a caliper that will allow you to exert pressure without bending.

Gorgetting that my vision no longer allows me to read a micrometer I bought two a month or so ago,

If you will email me your postal address, I'll send one on to you.

The looser the weave the thicker a fabric will measure

[email protected]

As for how I am I think wretched would be a good description. On dialysis, limiting back pain, vision zipping away, and for local entertainment, the worst case of athlete's foot I have ver enjoyed but I still find a lot of joy discussing Muzzleloading and everything about it.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Skychief]

Mr. Schoultz, thank you for your very kind offer, but, it's not necessary. I may find one and repeat the process.

I appreciate seeing you post here and am glad to read how much you enjoy talking muzzleloading. You are in good company.

Best regards, Skychief :hatsoff:

 

[Dr5x]

Skychief.
You have caused me to ponder you Forum name as making material thicker by washing it would involve creating matter out of nothing. A somewhat Biblical endeavor.
However, remembering once upon a distant time when I accidentally washed a pair of my long dead brides touser like pants with result that they became half sized and thick as carpeting it occurred to me that what has happened here was a certain amount of shrinkage which causes a certain amount of material to require less pace left and right but which requires more space as thickness.
Thus not increasing matter out of nothing.
The shrunken pants resulteed in three or four days of one-sided conversation remembered painfully to this day.

If you would care to have a copy of my occasionally controversial EBook instead of the micrometer, send me an email at

[email protected]

I enjoyed you'r rattling my cage for a while

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Rifleman1776]

Measuring the thickness is not all that complexicated.
Just use a micrometer that has a rachet and you will get consistent results. That is what is important to good shooting, consistency with all your fixins and methods. You won't shoot any better/worse than the other guy because your patch material is .001" thicker or thinner than his.

 

[Skychief]

Good morning Dutch!!

Some of those one-sided conversations leave a mark, don't they? OUCH!!!!! :haha:

This next observation meshes with your above post...

I purchased the mentioned fabrics as 6" X 36" samples from their respective bolts.

Though I did not measure their post washing/drying LENGTHS, the denims all appeared the same and close to their original 3 foot lengths.

The pocket drill material shrunk in length remarkably! It was quite noticeable and I would guess it's length shrank to 2 feet, from the original 3 feet.

Could this loss of length (and possibly width) transformed the material into a thicker piece of fabric? :hmm:

I find this interesting.

Best regards, Skychief

 

[Dr5x]

It's the only way it could get thicker otherwise you would be creating matter out of nothing.
You could the graduate into changing water into fine. and a possible threat to the Rmans.
I am surprised at the amount of shrinkage in a fabric that I would have assumed would shrink the least.
I am pleased with me for figuring it out mentally. The item I shrank were called Capri pants which was an ugly garment favored by ladies in the \70's.


The destruction of any of them was a blow in the favor of the envenom,met.

I re[peat the offer of a free copy of my eBook as you just might appreciate it or at worst discover amusement.

[email protected]

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Skychief]

Email inbound Dutch. Thank you!! :thumbsup:

Best regards, Skychief

 

[hanshi]

I think most all are aware that cotton does shrink. Fabrics made from cotton will shrink unless the fabric has been Pre-shrunk; jeans are normally pre-shrunk. When washing a new piece of patching material, to remove the starch, the piece of material does get smaller and can measure just a bit thicker. Denim, at least from jeans, doesn't seem to do this. I've never bought new denim material so can't comment on whether or not it shrinks; I just don't know.