Probably Stumpy's 98 octane Moose Milk. :winking:
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Detonation ?
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Probably Stumpy's 98 octane Moose Milk. :winking:
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Possibly a mineral oil? - Another kink in the armour.
From the second edition of Black Powder Handbook and Laoding Manual by Lyman written by Sam Fadala :
Chapter 9 , page 68
Ramrod/Loading Rod Pressure
The idea is firm seating of the shot charge or projectile upon the powder in the breech . This has nothing to do with leaning heavily on the ramrod . Putting super pressure on the loading rod could compact the charge to the point of detonation . Never use a hammer or mallet on the end of the ramrod to seat the bullet . Conceivably , such blows could cause a charge of powder to go off .
Chapter 8 , page 65
Impact Sensitivity
All muzzleloader fuels are impact sensitive . That means if someone breaks the rules of safety that dictates that we never hit the powder with a hammer , the charge on the slab may go boom .
I just bought the book , i didn't write it .
eace:
Chapter 9 , page 68
Ramrod/Loading Rod Pressure
The idea is firm seating of the shot charge or projectile upon the powder in the breech . This has nothing to do with leaning heavily on the ramrod . Putting super pressure on the loading rod could compact the charge to the point of detonation . Never use a hammer or mallet on the end of the ramrod to seat the bullet . Conceivably , such blows could cause a charge of powder to go off .
Chapter 8 , page 65
Impact Sensitivity
All muzzleloader fuels are impact sensitive . That means if someone breaks the rules of safety that dictates that we never hit the powder with a hammer , the charge on the slab may go boom .
I just bought the book , i didn't write it .
eace:Guest
I've heard the same things about pounding on the RR or even bouncing it off the seated ball having the possibility of causing compression fire.
I never thought about my diesel powered air gun...no wonder why my cheapie crossman is so dang loud, I got 'er lubed good with SAE 10. Dumps blackbirds where they stand at 25 yds!
Maxiball, about your light load detonation with Bullseye, this is not an uncommon problem with light loads of any powder, even really slow burning stuff can detonate. I load light loads for my 38 and 45 colt but use filler wads to take up the space. As long as you hold the powder against the primer and fill up the air space with something, you'll never have a problem. Corrugated cardboard works well because it's really cheap and allows for having less than exact measurements because it'll squash a little if needed. OK, enough with the off topic/forum stuff.
This incident makes you think tho becuase I know I have gotten a ball that was tight and needed a little tap to get it going again. Not often but it happens and I usually just bounce the RR on it just enough to get it moving again. I always keep the butt on the ground and the barrel poited away from me when loading, just something scary about getting too close to the business end any more than is necessary.
One more "how about" to add here: If the hammer was all the way down in the fired position, perhaps the frizzen was slammed into the flint and or the hammer had enough bounce to hit the pan and eithe could have made a spark right at the touch hole. Another habit I have gotten into is loading with the hammer on half cock and frizzen open. Many years and thus far no incidents doing it this way.
Safety is foremost because premature firing can happen with any gun at any time. Dad had a doube 12 gauge cart gun let go both barrels on closing luckily only scaring the snot out of him and putting a decent size divit in the back yard. Was eye witness to a remington 1100 slam fire on closing blowing all four rounds out of the magazine full auto. Similar slam fire incident happened to a friend of mine with a .45 auto that went full auto on closing the slide. All these guns were in good working order but mechanical things can be good this instant and broken the next without warning. Please, always put safety first and watch that muzzle!
I never thought about my diesel powered air gun...no wonder why my cheapie crossman is so dang loud, I got 'er lubed good with SAE 10. Dumps blackbirds where they stand at 25 yds!
Maxiball, about your light load detonation with Bullseye, this is not an uncommon problem with light loads of any powder, even really slow burning stuff can detonate. I load light loads for my 38 and 45 colt but use filler wads to take up the space. As long as you hold the powder against the primer and fill up the air space with something, you'll never have a problem. Corrugated cardboard works well because it's really cheap and allows for having less than exact measurements because it'll squash a little if needed. OK, enough with the off topic/forum stuff.
This incident makes you think tho becuase I know I have gotten a ball that was tight and needed a little tap to get it going again. Not often but it happens and I usually just bounce the RR on it just enough to get it moving again. I always keep the butt on the ground and the barrel poited away from me when loading, just something scary about getting too close to the business end any more than is necessary.
One more "how about" to add here: If the hammer was all the way down in the fired position, perhaps the frizzen was slammed into the flint and or the hammer had enough bounce to hit the pan and eithe could have made a spark right at the touch hole. Another habit I have gotten into is loading with the hammer on half cock and frizzen open. Many years and thus far no incidents doing it this way.
Safety is foremost because premature firing can happen with any gun at any time. Dad had a doube 12 gauge cart gun let go both barrels on closing luckily only scaring the snot out of him and putting a decent size divit in the back yard. Was eye witness to a remington 1100 slam fire on closing blowing all four rounds out of the magazine full auto. Similar slam fire incident happened to a friend of mine with a .45 auto that went full auto on closing the slide. All these guns were in good working order but mechanical things can be good this instant and broken the next without warning. Please, always put safety first and watch that muzzle!
B.Habermehl
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Although the physics are definately there for the fire piston effect to work, my bet is on the probibility that the shooter had the frizzen down and managed to jar the hammer loose. I have set off a flintlock gun without priming more than once just to prove this can happen. Usually the simplest answer is the most probably correct one. BJH
robinghewitt
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Actually the physics isn't there, well unless it was a 2 lb brass hammer, the perp was Superman in cognito, or using "Cold Start" for patch lube.
B Habermehl has a simpler explanation than my smouldering flint wrapper, and applying Occam's razor, the simpler explanation is most likely to be true.
Unfortunately you can never put that mushroom cloud back inside the shiny metal sphere, so I expect boring old reality will be ignored as usual while the whacky fire piston theory will thrive.
Was there a prize? I usually miss the obvious answer when there's a prize ::
B Habermehl has a simpler explanation than my smouldering flint wrapper, and applying Occam's razor, the simpler explanation is most likely to be true.
Unfortunately you can never put that mushroom cloud back inside the shiny metal sphere, so I expect boring old reality will be ignored as usual while the whacky fire piston theory will thrive.
Was there a prize? I usually miss the obvious answer when there's a prize ::
Guest
I agree with Robin cause he's smart. :agree: :master: :RO:
Now 'bout that prize. Robin if you win it I wanna share for suckin' up! :haha:
It would be next to impossible to set the thing off from the air piston theory witout one heck of a whack.
Still the bottom line from all this is that too much pressure on the ram rod/ powder helps nothing, so why risk anything by leaning on the rod or beating it with a hammer. :m2c:
Now 'bout that prize. Robin if you win it I wanna share for suckin' up! :haha:
It would be next to impossible to set the thing off from the air piston theory witout one heck of a whack.
Still the bottom line from all this is that too much pressure on the ram rod/ powder helps nothing, so why risk anything by leaning on the rod or beating it with a hammer. :m2c:
Zonie, I think your on the right track. Car/Truck gas engines run in the 8 - 9 to one compression ratio, and the main function of compression is to preheat air/fuel mixture for more complete and easy combustion. Heavy duty or diesel engines run 25 to one and up, air is preheated so hot that when fuel is injected into cyl. it ignites from this heat alone. Now if you look at early gas engines, 3 to 5 to one ratios were common. And yes , you guys are right, loading will now be something we will all take more notice of, well at least untill we forget this incident.
Oh, I almost forgot, Re: temp rise during compression of air, if anyone wants to risk burning the skin off their hand, just put your hand on the cyl of a 10 or 20 h.p. air compressor in an automotive shop just after it ran long enough to fill a 250 gal. tank to 160 - 175 p.s.i. . The opposite of this is to use same shop air supply to blow on your hand, you will feel cold from air expanding. But don't take my word for it, just talk to any car/truck master tech,or plumber, or hvac tech.
But still...doesn't there also have to be some other failure mechanism for the situation to work...ie: to get the air-tight compression chamber effect, the vent would have to be 100% solidly blocked...normally when I seat a ball I can actually hear air bleeding out through the powder & vent :imo:
Roundball: Yup, your right.
If the air in the bore leaks out while the ball is being rammed, the pressure in the bore will stay low so the temperature rise will not be as much.
I always remove the spent cap if it is still there after firing. On a flintlock, I don't plug the vent hole just too give the air a path to escape. (With a patent breech plug, this also allows the air to blow the powder back into the cavity so it's close to the cap or vent hole).
Speed also has a lot to do with it because as the air temperature is rising, it is being absorbed by the wall of the barrel, the patch lube and the powder. Also, the slower speed gives the trapped air a longer period of time to escape thru whatever leaks it can find.
I'm not saying all of the premature firings of muzzleloading guns is caused by "dieseling", but it is something to keep in mind while loading.
Better to be safe than to be holding the ramrod while it's being fired 40 yards into the air. ::
If the air in the bore leaks out while the ball is being rammed, the pressure in the bore will stay low so the temperature rise will not be as much.
I always remove the spent cap if it is still there after firing. On a flintlock, I don't plug the vent hole just too give the air a path to escape. (With a patent breech plug, this also allows the air to blow the powder back into the cavity so it's close to the cap or vent hole).
Speed also has a lot to do with it because as the air temperature is rising, it is being absorbed by the wall of the barrel, the patch lube and the powder. Also, the slower speed gives the trapped air a longer period of time to escape thru whatever leaks it can find.
I'm not saying all of the premature firings of muzzleloading guns is caused by "dieseling", but it is something to keep in mind while loading.
Better to be safe than to be holding the ramrod while it's being fired 40 yards into the air. ::
Guest
It still is possible to get the required heat, perhaps. Just pump a bicycle pump and feel the base where the hose and valve is. It is HOT. That's from the compressed air moving through the small valve(hole) - similar to the vent??
; I've never given it a thought, before, as it always whooshes out the vent or nipple when I load- but never an accident- yet- perhaps I won't do that anymore just to hear the sound of powder granuals spitting out the vent.
: It's a long shot for possibility or probability - wierder things have happened, though.
; I've never given it a thought, before, as it always whooshes out the vent or nipple when I load- but never an accident- yet- perhaps I won't do that anymore just to hear the sound of powder granuals spitting out the vent.
: It's a long shot for possibility or probability - wierder things have happened, though.
Guest
Re: Blowing down the barrel after firing - I've seen that a lot and some places require it be done, apparently - I don't shoot there, personally. I've never experienced firing the powder off prematurely, when loading - ever - and that's in hundreds of pounds of powder and 100's of pounds of lead.
: Perhaps I'm an accident waiting for a place to happen because I won't do that, I don't know. It definitely allows you to see if the vent or niple is clear, and introduces moisture into the bore which helps soften powder, but also wets the area around the vent or inside the nipple, which isn't so good. Guys now use blow tubes when long range ctg. shooting at silouette targets to help keep the fouing soft- no time for cleaning during a string. Tha'ts OK but I never found it necessary up here in Prince George, dry as it is. I follow Paul Mathews lube recommendations and formulae fpr slugs - they work.
; I did a lot of shooting in the days where speed events were always one or more of the contests at the rendezvous. Stake cutting, how many holes can you make in 3 min. etc. I won the last one(# of holes) with a 15/16" .36 cal Hal Sharon barrel that I loaded 10gr. to 15gr. 3F and 6 to 9 naked balls each shot, no patch & had something like 26 or 28 holes in my target for 5 shots. They should have had the targets at 100yds. not 25. These events were during the early to mid 70's.
: Perhaps I'm an accident waiting for a place to happen because I won't do that, I don't know. It definitely allows you to see if the vent or niple is clear, and introduces moisture into the bore which helps soften powder, but also wets the area around the vent or inside the nipple, which isn't so good. Guys now use blow tubes when long range ctg. shooting at silouette targets to help keep the fouing soft- no time for cleaning during a string. Tha'ts OK but I never found it necessary up here in Prince George, dry as it is. I follow Paul Mathews lube recommendations and formulae fpr slugs - they work.
; I did a lot of shooting in the days where speed events were always one or more of the contests at the rendezvous. Stake cutting, how many holes can you make in 3 min. etc. I won the last one(# of holes) with a 15/16" .36 cal Hal Sharon barrel that I loaded 10gr. to 15gr. 3F and 6 to 9 naked balls each shot, no patch & had something like 26 or 28 holes in my target for 5 shots. They should have had the targets at 100yds. not 25. These events were during the early to mid 70's.
Yeah, to me, it's a basic decision of whether or not to be committed to safety disciplines or not, and I try to be...I try to limit my exposure to a muzzle of only a hand/arm using a ramrod...am concious of leaning back a little when pouring powder down a recently fired bore, etc...probably nothign will ever happen.....but........
Same principle as the old saying we were taught as soon as we could walk: "Look both ways before crossing the road" .....it's very often not necessary.....but.......
Same principle as the old saying we were taught as soon as we could walk: "Look both ways before crossing the road" .....it's very often not necessary.....but.......
Daryl, I had to go back a few pages to find this one, but it's something not often dicussed. Just how much force is required to ignite BP by impact? Interesting to note that the government sources you mentioned couldn't get it to ignite in the can by impact. About a year ago, I knocked a 2/3 full can of Goex FFg off of a shelf. It fell about 7 feet to the concrete floor of my workroom. :shocking: WHile the can did not explode (thank God!) it gave me quite a start! :shocking: Needless to say, I now keep all my powder on the bottom shelf! :shocking: :thumbsup:
Daryl,
Black powder can be ignited by impact shock ignition. The International Critical Tables published early in the 20th century gives a fall-hammer test value for BP impact shock ignition sensitivity. Another industry source stated that its impact shock sensitivity was about that of tetryl.
To gain ignition via impact shock the sample of powder must be under "rigid confinement".
In the fall-hammer test you have a sample holder that is a block of metal with a 1/4" hole drilled into it. Highly polished hole surfaces. Into that goes the sample. Then a plunger that fits snugly into the 1/4" hole. It too must be highly polished.
A 2 kg weight riding in a tube is allowed to fall onto the plunger from varying heights.
There will be a height where you get no ignitions in 10 drops of the hammer. Than a greater height where you will get 10 ignitions per 10 drops. The data in between forms a s curve on a graph.
But outside of this controlled lab test it is most difficult to get bp to ignite unless it is being held under rigid confinent as in the fall-hammer test.
Generally, with a impact the powder grains will crumble and act to adsorb most of the kinetic energy.
In any of these impact shock ignition tests the kinetic energy is being converted to heat energy where the plunger in the sample holder contacts the grains of powder. Heating localized where the grains are against a metal surface.
Actually smokeless powders are a bit more impact shock ignition sensitive compared to black powder.
It can be done but usually under very controlled conditions.
Bill K.
Black powder can be ignited by impact shock ignition. The International Critical Tables published early in the 20th century gives a fall-hammer test value for BP impact shock ignition sensitivity. Another industry source stated that its impact shock sensitivity was about that of tetryl.
To gain ignition via impact shock the sample of powder must be under "rigid confinement".
In the fall-hammer test you have a sample holder that is a block of metal with a 1/4" hole drilled into it. Highly polished hole surfaces. Into that goes the sample. Then a plunger that fits snugly into the 1/4" hole. It too must be highly polished.
A 2 kg weight riding in a tube is allowed to fall onto the plunger from varying heights.
There will be a height where you get no ignitions in 10 drops of the hammer. Than a greater height where you will get 10 ignitions per 10 drops. The data in between forms a s curve on a graph.
But outside of this controlled lab test it is most difficult to get bp to ignite unless it is being held under rigid confinent as in the fall-hammer test.
Generally, with a impact the powder grains will crumble and act to adsorb most of the kinetic energy.
In any of these impact shock ignition tests the kinetic energy is being converted to heat energy where the plunger in the sample holder contacts the grains of powder. Heating localized where the grains are against a metal surface.
Actually smokeless powders are a bit more impact shock ignition sensitive compared to black powder.
It can be done but usually under very controlled conditions.
Bill K.
Guest
Wow Dutch. Great report out.
Thank you. :thumbsup:
Thank you. :thumbsup:
Guest
Yes- that was a good 'expose'- smokeless being someTIMES more sensitive to impact- I would suggest, that the double based powders would be these, not the single based ones, and then, not all smokeless. The double based ones are the ones with nitro-CELULOUS in them and are somewhat more sensitive, easier to ignite and hotter burning than single based smokeless powders.
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