Development of Musket Caps vs. 11's, etc.

[Cosmoline]

I find I am in need of the expert help here. My question is about the history of what I call "musket caps", which are shaped like a top hat and fit my old family Richmond Musket vs. the No. 11's and similar, much smaller primer caps in use on most traditional caplocks today. I've been asking around but nobody seems to know for sure when the smaller primer caps started replacing the big "top hat" caps. I've seen pics of CW period caps, which are very similar or identical to modern "musket caps." They look nothing like the much smaller No. 11's.

One suggestion is that the two designs evolved side-by-side in the 1830's and 40's with the "top hat" caps for military muskets and the No. 11's for civilian rifles. But I had thought the smaller caps were a much more modern development. Does anyone know for sure?

Also, what if anything is the advantage of using a no. 11 nipple on a caplock rifle or musket vs. a big tophat musket cap? Are they more accurate or something? I find the musket caps far easier to manipulate and they seem to offer more reliable ignition.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I believe they did develope side by side. I find the #11 caps fit nipples on several pepperbox pistols( revolvers?) I have that date back to the 1830s, and '40s. And, I think you were given correct information. The top hat, musket caps were designed for military muskets. Remember, getting shot at while you are trying to reload is NO fun, causes lots of adrenalin rushes, which in turn destroy the ability of humans to use fine motor skills, well. Those small #11 caps were thought to be too small to be able to be handled surely enough during battles, so the larger caps were developed to use on battle rifles. They were easier to grasp and control because they are so much bigger. And, the nipples you put those caps on are much larger than those that use the #11 caps, too.

 

[renovato]

I can't help you much on the history part of your question. I do have something to add about accuracy though. I find that musket caps or magnum caps tend to be a little less consistent. My theory is that the extra priming compound has enough oomph to start the ball moving off the powder before it has a chance to ignite fully. I guess that would depend on many variables such as the gun itself, ball/patch tightness, bullet weight, etc. But in the guns that I've tried them on, plain ol' #11s shoot smaller, rounder groups. Originally I went to musket caps and magnum caps thinking that they might get the powder burning more quickly which should improve consistency. I was never able to find a load that shot as well with them as with #11s.

 

[Zonie]

The book SPRINGFIELD MUZZLE-LOADING SHOULDER ARMS by Claud E. Fuller, first printed in 1930, copyright 1931 FRANCIS BANNERMAN & SON, says
"The correspondence from the Ordnance Department would indicate that the claims of Mr Joshua Shaw as the originator of the copper cap were well sustained ..." (P79)

"...Joshua Shaw (a English artist in Philadelphia) applied for a patent in 1814. Not being a resident of this country for two years it was refused".
His first caps were made of iron with the idea of re priming them for successive use; in 1815 he made them of pewter, to be thrown away, and in 1816 he made them of copper exactly as they were made for the next fifty years." (p78)

A number of war department correspondences in the 1840's is included in this book discussing Mr Shaw's patent and the costs of using it.
Unfortunately I don't see any reference to differentiate regular civilian caps from Musket caps.

I have no doubt that by 1844 the full sized Musket cap was in use because I personally own a 1842 Musket manufactured in that year which has a (from its appearance) original nipple which is sized for the Flanged Musket Cap.

The Hall Breech loading Rifle was made in both Flintlock and Percussion versions and according to Flayderman's Guide the Model 1833 Hall-North Percussion version was made in 1834 thru 1839.
Flayderman does not mention the size of the Percussion caps used by it but he does say it was the first Percussion gun adapted by the Military.

If this is the first use of the Percussion system I doubt that the Musket Cap would have proceeded it by very many years as the civilian market apparently had no need for such a thing.

I have seen many photos of (and actual) converted Muskets and they were all using the large Musket cap nipple but then, I have no way of knowing when these conversions were made.

It wasn't until the resurgence of the Percussion guns following the 1960's that I ever heard of using a Musket Cap on a Percussion rifle and then it was done in the belief that some sort of improved ignition would be the benefit.

Although there are many who swear by them, I've also heard of several people who swore at them when they tried using them on their newly made traditional muzzleloaders.

 

[Cosmoline]

It wasn't until the resurgence of the Percussion guns following the 1960's that I ever heard of using a Musket Cap on a Percussion rifle and then it was done in the belief that some sort of improved ignition would be the benefit.

Huh, well go figure. I'm inclined to use them because I have had nothing but trouble with the 11's. I can barely hold them esp. in the cold.

 

[Tumblernotch]

I'm with Zonie on this. The successful application of the percussion system was known as early as 1816 and in use by private arms manufacturers by 1833, probably earlier. But the US military didn't adopt this system until 1841. Possibly, the earliest M1841's (Mississippi Rifle) and early Hall percussion rifles used the smaller cap for a while, but I'm sure that they switched quickly if they did. Machinery for making the winged cap was definitely in use before 1848 as I have in front of me a lengthy letter describing its use and comparing it to the French machinery which apparently was in use at an earlier date. Also, there are letters regarding Joshua Shaw's claims for compensation for the use of his invention and machinery in 1844. In one letter, Shaw claimed to have offered his percussion caps to the Secretary of War in 1822. Now, whether these are the small civilian type cap or the musket cap, it does not say.

 

[BrownBear]

I'm reaching into the dark corners of my hazy memory, but wasn't there a priming "tape" mixed into the story back then, more or less reminiscent of the rolls of caps for a cap gun we used as kids?

As for difficulty of handling #11's, try a cap holder, whether one of the brass ones or one you make yourself by perforating leather. That beats even musket caps for handling in the cold, especially with gloves.

On using musket caps instead of #11's today, in my own hands the only time I've "needed" them was a rifle with a drum bolster and Pyrodex. It just wouldn't light it off consistently even with P and lots of lock slapping. Sometimes even the musket caps missed. Switching to Goex 2f or 3f gave instant igntition with musket caps, and same again when I switched back to #11s. Rather than keep another type of caps around, I've just relegated that particular rifle to real black only.

In all my other cappers the switch to musket caps didn't improve things at all, whether with black or sub. Said another way, they're all reliable with either type of powder using #11s, so musket caps just aren't worth the trouble. One rifle needs the nipple picked after half a dozen shots with Pyro, but that's true with both musket caps and #11s. No difference in accuracy in any of my rifles that I can see when switching back and forth between caps.

 

[Emet Huntsman]

When my family came from Switzerland to Texas in the mid-1840's they brought with them a Belgian made caplock that used musket caps. I would assume the gun had been built earlier than that by at least a couple of years.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Yes. Edward Maynard invented the tape primer which is what the toy cap pistol we used as kids was based on. The government bought the rights to it and it was used on several thousand M1816 muskets, most of which were converted by Remington. The style Remington came up with was the one later used on the new M1855 rifle-musket. The curved rabbit eared hammer was retained on the M1861. And of course captured Harpers Ferry parts and the machinery used on the '55 were used to build the Richmond R-M (minus the tape primer mechanism) and the Fayetteville Rifle.

The problem with the tape system was that it wasn't as waterproof and reliable as tests had shown. Apparently the tests weren't complete enough because several thousand Maynard primed weapons, including pistols, were made before the Army decided to do away with it. It was a good idea though and if the tape had been made more reliable and less susceptable to damage, it probably would have been a great success.

 

Cosmoline, if you're having trouble handling the "11's in the cold, you might want think about using a capper. Mine works great for me!

 

[Cosmoline]

I've been using a straight line capper but it runs out fast and is difficult to recharge in the field. Plus on nipples where the caps don't fit well it doesn't help much.

 

[Emet Huntsman]

There is a guy who manufactures a capper that holds more than a straight-line rig. -- can't recall his name, but you load the caps in bulk and the rig is wide and flat.
You might try changing out the nipple to hold the caps. :2

 

[paulvallandigham]

Order either of the Tedd Cash cappers from Track. Both hold a full tin of 100 caps. Its a lot harder to run out of caps in the field using these. I also would consider making a leather cap holder. Make a couple.Its like carrying a spare cylinder for a revolver. You may not need it, but when you do its really nice to have an extra.

How many caps the leather capper holds is totally up to you. The ones made out of thick leather that are about the diameter of a silver dollar hold about 12 caps. A leather punch is used to make holes for the #11 caps away from the edge, and then a sharp knife or razor is used to cut a slit from the hole to the edge, to help in releasing the cap once you have it pressed on the nipple. A second piece of leather is usually used to cover the top of each nipple, protecting your thumb from an unintended discharge if a cap were to fire as you were putting it on the nipple.

The leather cappers were often carried on a thong in the belt or possibles bag, attached to the shoulder strap. Or, some carried them on a thong around their neck, so they could protect the caps from weather by putting the capper down the front of their shirt.

Dixie GWs used to have these for sale, but I have not checked their catalogue lately for this item.

They are very easy to make if you have some thick leather, and a leather punch. I have seen them made from leather than once was a belt! Sometimes two layers are glued together with contact cement, or rubber glue.

The idea is to make the leather capper thick enough to protect the caps from being pulled out of the leather holder accidentally, by making the leather thick enough that the height of the cap remains surrounded by the leather.

 

[Emet Huntsman]

Tedd Cash -- that's the name I was trying to remember :redface: . That's why I have to write everything down. Site is tdcmfg.com.

 

[BrownBear]

I use the Cash revolver capper. Holds 100 #11's and is really reliable. Several hunting pards use the Cash rifle capper. It also holds 100 #11's and is perfectly reliable. Probably a little more compact than my revolver capper, but I've never seen any reason to own both.

 

[thumper50]

I have used the Ted Cash revolver capper for several years, on my perc. side hammers. I also use it on my open breech inlines. best darn capper ever!! So far!!

 

[Rat Trapper]

The TC star seven will hold seven caps ready to put on the nipple and more in reserve. One of these and half doz TC 4N1 loaders in a zip lock bag should all ya need for an afternoon hunt.

 

[musketman]

Also, what if anything is the advantage of using a no. 11 nipple on a caplock rifle or musket vs. a big tophat musket cap?

I myself feel that the #11's are harder for me to use, they are too small for shaking hands and the only advanage I can see for them are in revolvers, there the extra cap material of the musket cap could lock up a black powder revolver's action.

I know there are many #11 capper designs that work wonderful, but I have always taken a shine to the top hats.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I don't know a capper made that isn't bigger than a musket cap, but then, my big fingers never have handled even musket caps well enough to use them on guns. I have used a Navy Arms stick capper for my revolver, and use a Tedd Cash capper for my shotgun. Both were/are loaded with #11 caps. They work just fine.

I think this is an issue of what you get used to doing, rather than one being " better" than another.