Devolving a load

[JoJoLesh]

So I am trying to find the best load for my Gun.
I have got:
2 ball sizes (0.490 & 0.495)
2 patch thicknesses (0.010 & 0.015)
And I know that I want the charge somewhere between 70 & 100 gr and I only use 5 gr increments.

That is 28 permutations.

Patch lube is the same, and using the same powder (Goex 3F)

I standardly with unmentionable firearms I like to shoot 2, 5 round groups, so 10 rounds total to determine group size (or location if sighting in).

That puts me at what? 280 shots to find what is best!?
If I take it to 1 group of 5, 140?

Let’s say I just flip the table and go with 1 group of 3 shots..... that’s 84 shots, and I have doubts in my head if I did all that work in vain.

If I do 10gr increments on my charge, and my happy 5 round groups, I am at a best of 80 shots.

Ok, let’s be real, if I swab between shots, I am not going to get this done in a day at a public range. I have never even gotten close to that many shots in a day with the smoke pole, even swabbing every 5 (my standard when just messing around). I think I am doing good to get 20 off before flyers I the group have nothing to do with the load, but then I normally shoot standing and for this I would be prone or of the bench.

What is the solution here?
Do I not need to expect having to go all the way up to 100gr (or more)?
Do I just need to suck it up and dedicate 5 intense range days to this.
Then again when I change lube, because I probably will when I run out of precluded patches. And I will run out of precluded patches over this dialing in period.


Right now I shoot with 70 gr loads, because it nicely works out to 100 shots per lb black, and I buy balls I the 100 count box. I think patches come 100 per pack too.

What do you guys do?

 

[cositrike]

So I am trying to find the best load for my Gun.
I have got:
2 ball sizes (0.490 & 0.495)
2 patch thicknesses (0.010 & 0.015)
And I know that I want the charge somewhere between 70 & 100 gr and I only use 5 gr increments.

That is 28 permutations.

Patch lube is the same, and using the same powder (Goex 3F)

I standardly with unmentionable firearms I like to shoot 2, 5 round groups, so 10 rounds total to determine group size (or location if sighting in).

That puts me at what? 280 shots to find what is best!?
If I take it to 1 group of 5, 140?

Let’s say I just flip the table and go with 1 group of 3 shots..... that’s 84 shots, and I have doubts in my head if I did all that work in vain.

If I do 10gr increments on my charge, and my happy 5 round groups, I am at a best of 80 shots.

Ok, let’s be real, if I swab between shots, I am not going to get this done in a day at a public range. I have never even gotten close to that many shots in a day with the smoke pole, even swabbing every 5 (my standard when just messing around). I think I am doing good to get 20 off before flyers I the group have nothing to do with the load, but then I normally shoot standing and for this I would be prone or of the bench.

What is the solution here?
Do I not need to expect having to go all the way up to 100gr (or more)?
Do I just need to suck it up and dedicate 5 intense range days to this.
Then again when I change lube, because I probably will when I run out of precluded patches. And I will run out of precluded patches over this dialing in period.


Right now I shoot with 70 gr loads, because it nicely works out to 100 shots per lb black, and I buy balls I the 100 count box. I think patches come 100 per pack too.

What do you guys do?

You’ve missed out on the different patch lube and different powder. I’d never use less than 5 shots for a group. I don’t really see the problem, except you’re trying to do it all, in one visit to the range. Work off a bench, changing one variable at a time. If you only need your gun for paper punching, I’d start with about 60 grains. 490 ball and a 15 thou patch. Hunting loads, I know little about.

 

[JoJoLesh]

You’ve missed out on the different patch lube and different powder. I’d never use less than 5 shots for a group. I don’t really see the problem, except you’re trying to do it all, in one visit to the range. Work off a bench, changing one variable at a time. If you only need your gun for paper punching, I’d start with about 60 grains. 490 ball and a 15 thou patch. Hunting loads, I know little about.

I do have thoughts of keeping it a hunting viable load. I think that 70 gr is good enough for deer and maybe hogs (the 45-70 worked right?) but maybe 60 gr would be powerful enough too.

For powder, I am fairly confident that I won’t change from GoEx 3F. Readily available (for BP), and works in my partner's gun too.

For lube, I am confident that I will change.
Actually, I think I will probably change in the next 100 - 200 shots. I am buying pre lubed patches now and I think it would be more economical to cut and lube my own. Or maybe if would just allow me to better control the lube I use. I don't know yet.

So should I even try refining my load yet, or am I wasting time? I have plenty to work on (e.g. loading procedure, eliminating my flintlock flinch, trigger control). I am pretty decent with the unmentionables, but this blackpowder thing has me feeling like a babe again.

Also shooting it is just fun, so maybe untill I settle down on a lube, I should just be enjoying my trigger time without agonizing over every detail.....

No, no matter what I will be wondering if I should go up or down a few grains or thou.

 

[cositrike]

I do have thoughts of keeping it a hunting viable load. I think that 70 gr is good enough for deer and maybe hogs (the 45-70 worked right?) but maybe 60 gr would be powerful enough too.

For powder, I am fairly confident that I won’t change from GoEx 3F. Readily available (for BP), and works in my partner's gun too.

For lube, I am confident that I will change.
Actually, I think I will probably change in the next 100 - 200 shots. I am buying pre lubed patches now and I think it would be more economical to cut and lube my own. Or maybe if would just allow me to better control the lube I use. I don't know yet.

So should I even try refining my load yet, or am I wasting time? I have plenty to work on (e.g. loading procedure, eliminating my flintlock flinch, trigger control). I am pretty decent with the unmentionables, but this blackpowder thing has me feeling like a babe again.

Also shooting it is just fun, so maybe untill I settle down on a lube, I should just be enjoying my trigger time without agonizing over every detail.....

No, no matter what I will be wondering if I should go up or down a few grains or thou.

I’d just find a starting point , say 60 grains. Keep patch. and ball constant and shoot 5. Go up 5 grains and shoot5 maybe up to80 grains. See where that takes you. Maybe then try exactly the same with a different ball size.

 

[Rudyard]

What might suit range shooting is a long series of trials .What will better answer for hunting is another thing altogether . Well in my view and I have hunted a lot . Game rarely lets you take your shot at a given range ( Ide forget long shots), & animals are as oft as not taken at fairly close ranges in the thickly wooded hills of NZ at least . I load a readily loaded ball one that dosn't call for meticulous or too hard the seat the ball .No involved sights . Just a simple easy to see ivory or silver front & simple single notch in rear. Know your rifle at 50 & 100 there isn't time for calculations or adjustment . And if our Department of Conservation didn't insist on rifles (For fear hunters might pot the Native Pigeons ) Ide use a double smoothbore and think it ideal, Rifleing only holds fouling , slows loading ,& lessens the velocity .The hollow rib being quite enough in most cases . I once worked as a culler for the NZ forest Service . All I shot with my 303 I could have as easy took with a double 20 bore shotgun with ball. That said the old Jungle Carbine took some pretty hard knocks that might worry the thin barrels of my 20 bore and the service didn't approuve of or supply rounds for 20 bores . !.
Rudyard

 

[longcruise]

First thing to do is lose the pre lubed patches. There's no assurance that are not deteriorated and a good chance that if you purchase the exact same product again it may not the "exact same"!

Get some bulk patching in two or three thicknesses and pick a lube that you can replicate when you need more. So, go to the range with all your stuff and shoot three shots of each possible combo at the maximum charge that you will ever use. After each of the three shots, recover the three patches. If they are not "perfect" abandon that combo forever! Don't shoot any of these shots at paper. Just have some fun plinking.

Use the ball and patch combos that held up the best to do the accuracy testing.

It's always talked about in terms of working "up" a load. That's a modern arm and component term. The loads are worked up for safety reasons. If you have any reason to believe that your gun isn't safe at 100 grains then don't start there. But instead, work down the ladder. Skip the five grain increments. Go with ten grains and then explore both sides of the most accurate groups.

Probably comes across as a rant, but you did ask "What is the solution here?"


[Edit]: suggest wiping after every shot.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Well, you have 2 ball sizes times 2 patch thicknesses times 28 powder charges or 112 combinations. Then you should shoot 5 shot groups or 560 shots.

You can reduce it possibly by starting at the low end. Keep increasing the amount of powder and stop when the groups open up.

Since each rifle is different, there is no one formula to apply and get that optimal load.

 

[Kansas Jake]

One thing you didn't mention is the rifling twist rate. It may make a difference in the most accurate load for your rifle. A 1in 48 twist will probably be most accurate at a lower powder charge compared to a 1 in 60 or 70. Rifling depth will also effect patch etc. I have found on my TC Hawken over the years likes around 70-80 grains with a 490 ball and tight patch. I have a drop in barrel with deep rifling and about a 1 in 60 or 70 twist rate. It isn't marked and I bought it second hand. It seems to like a starting point of around 70 grains. I'm still working up loads with it and breaking in the barrel. It has been a patch eater even after some smoothing and work on the muzzle. It probably has about 150-200 rounds through it. I would start with the .490 ball and the tighter patch and with that combo find the amount of powder that gives best accuracy. Then start experimenting from there.

Also, Dutch's accuracy book is a good investment on accuracy development.

 

[Eterry]

Just like shooting cartridge arms, there are WAY too many variables unless you wanna spend a lot of time, effort and money on "The Perfect" load.

I personally decide beforehand what groups I'm looking for or hope for, then if/when I hit that zone I stop load development.

If this is a match gun, then the search continues, maybe indefinitely. I know match shooters who never stop refining their load.

Good luck.

 

[renegadehunter]

I also recommend ditching the prelubed store bought patches. One batch may be fine but then the next is old and the material is breaking down, results in flyers and would throw a monkey wrench into your testing.
If you share what rifle and twist rate you have, the members here can probably get you "minute of deer" accurate at the very least right off the start.

Even though I've found several combos that my rifle shoots well, I like to test different things just for the knowledge and fun of it. Mainly patch materials and lubes. To avoid mixing up different patches and lubes I use small snack size ziplocs labeled with what's in them before leaving for the range and only set out what I'm currently testing on the shooting bench. I've found that most of the combos I try like the same powder quantity once I've discovered what the rifle prefers. I like to shoot 3 shot groups to weed out the really poor combos, and then go back to the ones that showed promise and do 5 shot groups. I also like to test at 50 yards. Many combos show promise at 25 but 50 really separates the decent from the poor, so I just start with 50. I also swab every shot to keep bore condition as consistent as possible. If shooting without swabbing is something you want, revisit it later after finding best combos.
I would plan on several range sessions. You won't shoot your best if trying to rush through the shooting. Don't feel pressured, you'll find what it likes. Just take your time and enjoy the shooting. Keep in mind one of the first combos you try may stack them and eliminate even having to test the other ones.

 

[JoJoLesh]

First thing to do is lose the pre lubed patches. There's no assurance that are not deteriorated and a good chance that if you purchase the exact same product again it may not the "exact same"!

Get some bulk patching in two or three thicknesses and pick a lube that you can replicate when you need more. So, go to the range with all your stuff and shoot three shots of each possible combo at the maximum charge that you will ever use. After each of the three shots, recover the three patches. If they are not "perfect" abandon that combo forever! Don't shoot any of these shots at paper. Just have some fun plinking.

Use the ball and patch combos that held up the best to do the accuracy testing.

It's always talked about in terms of working "up" a load. That's a modern arm and component term. The loads are worked up for safety reasons. If you have any reason to believe that your gun isn't safe at 100 grains then don't start there. But instead, work down the ladder. Skip the five grain increments. Go with ten grains and then explore both sides of the most accurate groups.

Probably comes across as a rant, but you did ask "What is the solution here?"


[Edit]: suggest wiping after every shot.

Great advice, thanks!

But manure, I thought I was eliminating one variable by going with prelubed patches. I figured that they would offer more consistency patch to patch and lot to lot than anything I cook up at home.

 

[Eterry]

My 1 experience with precut-prelubed patches was a disaster. They were old, kept falling apart on me. I don't recommend them .

 

[JoJoLesh]

What I have is a .50 cal Traditions 1:66 twist 33.5" barrel.

What I have been using is a 0.018 patch prelubed patch ( package marked 0.015 but mics out to 0.018) with a 0.490 ball over 70 gr of 3F.

It is just in the past month that I have been able to spend any real range time with this gun, and it is my first muzzleloader.

In all honesty it works OK, but I want to know if this load is the best. Or how much I am giving up for the sake of ease.

Right now if I take my time loading I can hit my 10" plate reliability at 75 meters standing (not a huge feat, I know). Being a lifelong bow hunter, I figure that if I can't get a game closer than that, I don't deserve to harvest it.
I have not taken more than 5 shots at anything further than 75 meters, so I have no clue where I am at 100.

For reference, with an iron sighted unmentionable danger close was 300m standing, kneeling, or prone. Anyway, those are perishable skills, and I have not kept up on them. They are kinda useless in the normal world.

 

[JoJoLesh]

My 1 experience with precut-prelubed patches was a disaster. They were old, kept falling apart on me. I don't recommend them .

Mine too! I figured it was my fault. Loading too abruptly, or not using the short starter right. My first 2 buys were OK, just this last batch that sucked. Again, I just thought that the first two were a more forgiving weave.

 

[Eterry]

Mine too! I figured it was my fault. Loading too abruptly, or not using the short starter right. My first 2 buys were OK, just this last batch that sucked. Again, I just thought that the first two were a more forgiving weave.

I'd say the first 2 batches were luck. I don't believe in luck, knock wood... lol

 

[JoJoLesh]

So this bulk patching that I am going to buy and cut...
Do I cut it into rounds,
Squares,
Or crosses?

The prelubed patches are round, but that leaves lots of short strings to fray off. Still round ball & round patch makes sense.

Squares is easy and leaves long warf and warp threads but would seem to have slot of extra fabric and folds.

Crosses seems like it would fit better around a ball, but would also be a real pain to cut. I know that some patches were crosses historically, but, well, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

Maybe this is a question for another thread, of for me to serch the archives for.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Buy three bags of patches from Track of the Wolf. DRY PATCHES - NO PRELUBE
Since you are shooting a 50 cal the patch size will be 50-59 caliber.
First bag - .010 thick
Second bag - .015 thick
Third bag - .018 thick
Start with one ball size - use only one type of lube - NO PRELUBE PATCHES. Choose one powder load - stay with it while you pick the right patch. Run groups with each patch thickness. The patch that produces the best group will be give you the starting point for the ball size.
Start over with the second ball size - repeat everything. Now you have a group winner - use the best ball-patch combination to start the powder workups. DON"T CHANGE MORE THAN ONE THING AT A TIME.
Label your targets, I like to take pictures, a lot easier to short out that way. Keep good records of your testing. Soon you will have another gun, or maybe 20 like I wound up with - so keep good notes on each gun.
Take your time - enjoy the journey. It may take a while - it may produce a real winner in the first batch.
When you get a group that you like - then you have a winner.
If you want to keep refining, start over with a different lube, or maybe a different powder. I use that as an excuse to spend the day at the range -

 

[cositrike]

So this bulk patching that I am going to buy and cut...
Do I cut it into rounds,
Squares,
Or crosses?

The prelubed patches are round, but that leaves lots of short strings to fray off. Still round ball & round patch makes sense.

Squares is easy and leaves long warf and warp threads but would seem to have slot of extra fabric and folds.

Crosses seems like it would fit better around a ball, but would also be a real pain to cut. I know that some patches were crosses historically, but, well, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

Maybe this is a question for another thread, of for me to serch the archives for.

Wouldn’t bother with crosses. Round or square doesn’t matter. Neither one better than the other

 

[longcruise]

Square is easy to cut. Cut at the muzzle is easy too.

 

[Grenadier1758]

So this bulk patching that I am going to buy and cut...
Do I cut it into rounds,
Squares,
Or crosses?

The prelubed patches are round, but that leaves lots of short strings to fray off. Still round ball & round patch makes sense.

Squares is easy and leaves long warf and warp threads but would seem to have slot of extra fabric and folds.

Crosses seems like it would fit better around a ball, but would also be a real pain to cut. I know that some patches were crosses historically, but, well, ain't nobody got time fo dat.

Maybe this is a question for another thread, of for me to serch the archives for.

Prelubed patches carry uncertainty with respect to patch deterioration due to age of the patch and lubrication. As has been stated before, Lubricate at the time of the shooting session. A consistent lubrication can be applied then.

Square patches have a little bit of extra fabric that really doesn't adversely effect accuracy.

Cross patches can be made by cutting strips of cloth the diameter of the ball and crossing two ball circumference long strips at the muzzle. This is more complicated than necessary and the gain in accuracy is negligible. The strips should be cut along the threads, either the warp or the weft.
Round patches are efficient and cutting at the muzzle assures that the patch is centered.