@DillyJamba, perhaps we could work out a time to get to the range. I'll bring my ball gauges to measure the bore. We should be able to get closer to the solution to your shredded patches.
Leaving the range even more confused (Load development)
- Thread starter DillyJamba
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I've mentioned this before. Frank Costanza had a collection of over 90 original bags. Not a single short starter to be found. They didn't load a tight patch/ball combination. Look at original small bore rifles, with those original thin ramrods. They wouldn't have lasted for 150 years if they had to struggle to load a ball.
I think the reason later day shooters started in with short starters, was old timers shooting bench rifles were using them, many times with a false muzzle. That's a whole different ball game from what most of us do.
So, the new crop of shooters, starting back 50+ years ago figured, the bench shooters are using them and shooting amazing groups, so I need one, too.
Well, if you are shooting heavy bench rifles, maybe you do.
But if you shoot from the pouch to take a squirrel or a deer or an elk or a bear, or to shoot a trail walk, they are a waste of time. I can only think of a couple old timers in our group that use one.
If you are basically an off hand shooter, that extra half inch you may gain at the bench does nothing for you in the field. Make a patch / ball combination that loads easily.
Okay, I have my asbestos panties on, flame away!
I think the reason later day shooters started in with short starters, was old timers shooting bench rifles were using them, many times with a false muzzle. That's a whole different ball game from what most of us do.
So, the new crop of shooters, starting back 50+ years ago figured, the bench shooters are using them and shooting amazing groups, so I need one, too.
Well, if you are shooting heavy bench rifles, maybe you do.
But if you shoot from the pouch to take a squirrel or a deer or an elk or a bear, or to shoot a trail walk, they are a waste of time. I can only think of a couple old timers in our group that use one.
If you are basically an off hand shooter, that extra half inch you may gain at the bench does nothing for you in the field. Make a patch / ball combination that loads easily.
Okay, I have my asbestos panties on, flame away!
(50 yards bench)
Well my range day with 527 ball did not go as planned, still shredding patches. Still inconsistent groups. Happened to run into a really proficient shooter in my club while I was at the range and well…
His advise goes against most of the grain of what’s advised here so either this will be a cautionary tale when I’m met with failure the next time at the range or this can be a learning lesson for others who experience similar issues in the future.
May the muzzleloading gods have mercy on my soul it involves power tools
1. Wrapped 320 grit around an steeples tapered drill bit (covering the cutting edge just using it as a tool to wrap sand paper around)
2. Rammed tapered bit into the end of my gun and let ‘er rip (within reason) I tried to stay as square as possible while doing so I’d rate my success at that… maybe a 7/10
3. Repeated step 2 with 600 grit
4. Slathered a bore mop (shotgun) with polishing compound and went back into the bore with this.
My overall finish is not machine level even but I now have smooth tapered opening and only really effected the first 1/4-1/2 inch of the gun.
I tried undersized balls, a half dozen patching materials and various lubes with no improvement. The source is a trusted one even if the conventional internet wisdom disagrees, he is generally a top shooter at most matches and he stated he had done this with two of his guns.
I’ll post the results when I get out later this week, honestly I’m terrified of what I may have done LOL
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Personally would not have considered the sandpaper covered tapered drill bit, but what’s done is done.
I’ll admit I haven’t read every word on this thread, but as suggested a number of times, would guess troubles are coming from burrs at the crown or in the bore, or too thin or loose weave patch material.
Have you actually measured your bore? If you know the bore diameter and rifling depth, it’s simple math to come up with correct ball diameter and compressed patch thickness. In a relatively burr free bore I have found the theoretical calculated ball and patch combination works 99% of the time, though there can always be exceptions.
What follows it what I do to treat the crown on all my muzzleloaders that shoot patched roundballs. I have posted it a number of times. Good luck with whatever you try.
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Personally, I like to cut a 60° chamfer with a lathe, then polish. Without or without a lathe, I have used the ball bearing process I have posted about here a number of times to work muzzle.
Using a series of ball bearings (guess you could use glass balls or marbles), from about one and half times the bore diameter, to right around bore diameter, and using sandpaper of different grits from 120/180 up to 320 or finer (I take it up to 1000 grit
if I want a mirror finish, think working on someone else's gun). A couple of turns of the muzzle over each ball bearing with progressively finer sandpaper over them gives a smooth barrel crown to bore transition.
Basic idea is to hold the sandpaper over the ball bearing (you can place ball on the floor and hold paper with your feet, maybe on a pad or thin carpet if you don’t have a lathe to chuck up the barrel in) and rotate the barrel bore on the bearing with the sandpaper on it. Easy to keep barrel square with the floor. I’ll start with the larger diameter bearing and roughest grit paper and end with a smaller ball bearing near bore diameter, repeating with progressively finer grit sandpaper. I stop when I have a slight chamfer on bore and rifling lands that are highly polished.
I use Dykem (or a Sharpie) to mark the inside the bore so I can easily see when I starting to clean up everything without going too far. Note the 60° chamfer in the photograph was cut on a lathe, I just use the ball bearings to break up the lumps and sharp edges and polish the crown.
Note that with any method involving sandpaper, and your barrel is already finished, you are going to remove finish from the face of the bore if you don’t protect it. I’ve used ‘masking’ tape with a hole punched through it (use a wad punch), but only on other people’s gun’s, not worrying about the finish on mine.
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Personally would not have considered the sandpaper covered tapered drill bit, but what’s done is done.
I’ll admit I haven’t read every word on this thread, but as suggested a number of times, would guess troubles are coming from burrs at the crown or in the bore, or too thin or loose weave patch material.
Have you actually measured your bore? If you know the bore diameter and rifling depth, it’s simple math to come up with correct ball diameter and compressed patch thickness. In a relatively bore free bore I have found the theoretical calculated ball and patch combination works 99% of the time, though there can always be exceptions.
What follows it what I do to treat the crown on all my muzzleloaders that shoot patched roundballs. I have have posted it a number of times. Good luck with whatever you try.
—————————————-
Personally, I like to cut a 60° chamfer with a lathe, then polish. Without or without a lathe, I have used the ball bearing process I have posted about here a number of times to work muzzle.
Using a series of ball bearings (guess you could use glass balls or marbles), from about one and half times the bore diameter, to right around bore diameter, and using sandpaper of different grits from 120/180 up to 320 or finer (I take it up to 1000 grit
if I want a mirror finish, think working on someone else's gun). A couple of turns of the muzzle over each ball bearing with progressively finer sandpaper over them gives a smooth barrel crown to bore transition.
Basic idea is to hold the sandpaper over the ball bearing (you can place ball on the floor and hold paper with your feet, maybe on a pad or thin carpet if you don’t have a lathe to chuck up the barrel in) and rotate the barrel bore on the bearing with the sandpaper on it. Easy to keep barrel square with the floor. I’ll start with the larger diameter bearing and roughest grit paper and end with a smaller ball bearing near bore diameter, repeating with progressively finer grit sandpaper. I stop when I have a slight chamfer on bore and rifling lands that are highly polished.
I use Dykem (or a Sharpie) to mark the inside the bore so I can easily see when I starting to clean up everything without going too far. Note the 60° chamfer in the photograph was cut on a lathe, I just use the ball bearings to break up the lumps and sharp edges and polish the crown.
Note that with any method involving sandpaper, and your barrel is already finished, you are going to remove finish from the face of the bore if you don’t protect it. I’ve used ‘masking’ tape with a hole punched through it (use a wad punch), but only on other people’s gun’s, not worrying about the finish on mine.
I’ve actually came across your method in my research searching every variation of my problem into google. I think by far you had a much cleaner result.
My hope is the same ends are met, I attempted various solutions to smoothing the crown with no luck. So I went atomic. If I ruined the last 1/2 inch of barrel I may have the rifle cut down.
I had little to lose as the rifle simply was not working in its current state and all the scotch brite and polishing wasn’t helping.
Maybe this can be a cautionary tale if my attempt was a failure at correcting this problem.
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I honestly don’t have a lot of faith that your tapered drill solution will solve your issues, but if it does great, you have hit a home run. If not, it is repairable. Maybe a shorten the barrel with haircut or possibly buy/borrow a coning tool (reference @flintsteel), though I have never coned a bore, but the process has many followers and believers.
One of my old man’s favorite repeated pieces of advice when problem solving, was to stop digging and put the shovel down. Something to consider.
Jumping ahead, let’s say the tapered drill thing doesn’t really help or makes things worse, what’s next? Would love to hear your plan. You could continue your multilevel game of Wackamole, changing and trying everything you can think of or read about and hope for a solution….. and good luck with that. Or maybe take up @Grenadier1758 on his generous offer to meet you at a range and attempt to figure things out. Tough decision…. Endless frustration or some real hands on help from a knowledgeable individual?
Personally, although I have been able to help others and some forum members solve their unsolvable conundrums in some one on one hands on sessions, @Grenadier1758 has WAY more experience than I have and personally would be jumping at the offer for some one on one session time with him. Who knows what could be learned. Suggest you take him up on his offer.
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Already planning on it just waiting for schedules to align, worked with other members of my club today that I met up at the range who consistently are top shooters. I need all the help I can get!
Good news is in dry ball testing since the work has been done I’ve not seen any patch damage like I was prior. Time will tell, I can actually start a .530 without using a short starter and not a hammer as well.
The main difference between the Woods Coning tool and the tapered drill is that the Woods tool has a pilot tip to center the cone. By spinning the tapered drill bit, you are using the spin to center the tapered drill, it's just not as precise as having a pilot tip to center the cone in the bore. That's much the same as using one's thumb and sandpaper, only a little more aggressive.
I will have my ball gauges, calipers and micrometer when I get the schedule aligned with @DillyJamba. Probably have some magnifiers. I'm planning to leave the bore scope at home though. I will bring a large tarp to try to catch more of the shot patches. There's an awful lot of patches on the ground at our range.
I will have my ball gauges, calipers and micrometer when I get the schedule aligned with @DillyJamba. Probably have some magnifiers. I'm planning to leave the bore scope at home though. I will bring a large tarp to try to catch more of the shot patches. There's an awful lot of patches on the ground at our range.
Sooty Scot
40 Cal
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Try red striped ticking. I just got some from JoAnn's which miked at twelve. Seems to be a bit thin for my .50 SMR w/ .480 RB. I need to go back to the old ticking.
longcruise
70 Cal.
Indeed! Holes in the middle are being punched there when you start the ball. Particularly telling that they are there when you blow them out with air.
Pictures are somewhat misleading, all of the holes start offcenter and appear to start from the land/groove contact. I've started and pulled some ball and seen 2 rifling sections in particular seemed to be the sharp offenders. Well.. prior to my Bubba threatment of the rifle.
I've tried a smaller short starter with no success but it was extremely undersized so hard to start the ball (36 cal) currently I'm using a track of the wolf 54 cal starter. I'm going pick up a traditions 50 starter to attempt during my next range visit.
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Unless your shooting benchrest matches a patch/ball combination that needs a short starter is really not needed.
A mallet to start it is way to tight.
A mallet to start it is way to tight.
Worked with @Grenadier1758 today at the range and came to the conclusion that the patches where being damaged by the rifling past the crown. The good news is my Bubba coning appears to have done no real damage to the rifle and I’m no longer getting cut patches from starting the ball.
Above is a pulled dry ball. After this I ran 100 passes with steel wool and the cutting was improved but not solved, tested 5 rounds and found patches still experiencing failure to various degrees.
Went home and ran 100 passes with red scotch brite, 100 with steel wool and JB bore polish.
I’m shocked by how sharp this Douglas barrel is after the shooting I’ve done with it and previous passes with scotchbrite and steel wool prior to this outing.
I even brought the bore scope to look at @DillyJamba's bore. The bore looked pretty good with only a little bit of pitting near the muzzle. The better measure was the calipers and ball gauge that I used to measure the land-to-land diameter of the bore. It was a tight 0.540 with one pair of lands being closer to 0.539. The 0.530" ball and the 0.018 cotton drill was too tight, and we had the results pictured above. I did have some 0.520" balls and 0.028" canvas. We loaded one of those balls in the thick patching. After pulling the ball we observed that we had good engagement of the patching on the ball at the lands and the patch was intact. We did the running of the 0000 steel wool and we saw considerable reduction in the cutting of the cotton drill patch. The firing tests using 0.527" balls and the 0.018" cotton drill patching with the Dawn and water patch lubricant resulted in patches with a couple of holes cut in the patch, but not the shredding. Dilly did slam one round down the barrel and that one did shred and flew out of the group. I think Dilly is well on the way to getting his rifle shooting with significantly improved accuracy on the target.
I gots me some good old fashioned experience from all this . THANKS
If you are using that for patching, you need something with a higher thread count. You need tight weave.
We took the photo with the sun as a backlight to best illuminate the cuts on the lands. The enlarged picture can be somewhat misleading. The effect of the back light will emphasize and illuminate the edges of the threads. @waksupi is correct in that a tight weave is needed. The patch cloth in the above photo is the #40 cotton drill cloth from JoAnn's and has been confirmed to have a tight weave, generally better than pillow ticking. A slip measurement using a micrometer is 0.018" and compressed using my digital caliper is 0.012". The stress that the material took getting compressed into the 0.005" of windage between the ball and the lands puts a lot of stress on the patching.
