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diagnose this frizzen, please

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hhughh

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I have two flintlocks.....One a Siler by Chambers, the other a Chambers Virginia lock. I have been tusseling with the Chambers for a while now. Made into a beautiful weapon, but I can not get the frizzen to perform properly.

I can take a flint place it in my "old" Siler, and a plentiful shower of sparks. Take the same flint, place it in the Va. Lock, and there will be no sparks, and large chunks of the flint break off. For a while, I could get about five "shots" off of a flint. Tried to reharden to see if that was the problem, now nothing but breaking the rock. I heat it to non-magnetic (a bright orange on this piece) then quench it in warm oil, like the orders say, but it's not working. Is there something I'm overlooking?

Thanks,
Hugh
 
Why is it that when a frizzen is not sparking properly, the first thing that people think is "the frizzen isn't hard enough"??? Ninety percent of the time when I read where someone has "rehardened" the frizzen, it still wouldn't spark... :shocked2: Take your frizzen and take a good, new file, and try to file the face. If it won't file, it's fine. :wink: Apparently, the idea comes from people buying cheap, crappy flintlock guns from India, with pretty poorly case hardened frizzens, and when they strike off all the thin hard surface, they have to go and harden it again. This is just not something you run into on an American lock.

Of course, now you have attempted to reharden it, so.... Test it to see if it really is hard now (I have NEVER been able to get a frizzen ANYWHERE near hard enough by using an oil quench). If so, it now needs to be tempered, or else you'll break the thing. I set the frizzen face down on a vise to act as a heat sink, to keep the striking surface from tempering down too much. Heat the thing tail forward with a propane torch to deep blue, as close as you can get to the angle where the upright striking surface joins the pan cover. You can even CAREFULLY heat the "spine" of the upright to a very light "straw" color. When done, immediately take it off the vise and put it on a brick, or even a piece of wood to cool on it's own. Done. The striking surface should still be too hard to file, but the rest will be relatively soft and springy.

Now, First off, the Siler (3/4") flint is too small for the rather larger Chambers lock. That alone would cause problems.

Even with a proper flint, there are other reasons why a lock won't spark that don't include frizzen hardness. The angle of the flint strike on the frizzen is the main one.

The Chambers "Virginia"/"Ketland"/"round faced English" locks are very well designed as to the cock and frizzen "geometry", and they are among the very few that I think don't need any modification in this respect.
 
Well, a file cuts mine......did before I rehardened.......tried again...still cut it...tried again......eventually you think operator error, but I'm doing it just the way I've read to do it.....tried twice today...files still cutting it.

Hugh
 
Go to your dixie catalogue and order some Kasenit..Costs 5$$ Simple and efficient keeps my indian muskets I have built from kits all fireing better then any fire lock I have ever seen.


:thumbsup:

Rob
 
Hardening frizzens can be difficult. Heating to orange isn't enough - it needs to be heated to a where a magnet is not longer attracted to it. Propane torches aren't hot enough - you'll need MAPP or acetylene. Also, you have to be careful not to go too hot or you will burn carbon off the surface.

Quenching in water is risky. I keep a frizzen that I ruined to remind me to not quench in water. The frizzen is hard as glass - with cracks all over it. What works for me is to use warm oil.

Often the surface of the frizzen loses carbon during the hardening process. After hardening, grind the striking surface clean. This removes the crud and the de-carbonized layer.

If all else fails, Kasenit works. Follow the instructions on the can.

Clayton
 
One more time!!! You can half sole a bad frizzen ; Take a piece of banding steel , found in trash piles everywhere. Cut it to shape and curve it to fit over the frizzen face, clean the piece to get the old blue off. Hold it by the very top tip, heat tobright cherry red, pile on the Kasenit, keep it hot till the K all melts. quench ,water will do. Then with epoxy or soft solder afix it to the frizzen and away you go. Yes epoxy holds up very wel, like several years.
 
Chris is probably right. Ouch that hurts admitting that (sorry Chris).

The design of the hammer/frizzen on the Virginia is excellent, but it also is very upright. This means that with a short flint, the top of the cock will probably strike the frizzen before the flint.

Secondly, if the frizzen is that soft, send it back to Jim and he will take care of it for you. Probably at no charge.

Good Luck
 
Hardening a frizzen w/ a torch is difficult and when up to heat, I quench in room temperature motor oil. The resultant hardness cannot be filed and tempering is done in the kitchen oven at 375 degrees. The pivot and toe area are heated w/ the torch to a bright blue. To facilitate heating w/ a Mapp Gas torch, I use a 3" long piece of 2" dia. steel pipe that has a cap on one end w/ {4} 1/8" dia. holes drilled in the cap for "breathing". Attach a wire to the frizzen thru the pivot hole and lay in the pipe and heat until bright red and quickly quench in the oil. The pipe concentrates the heat like a miniature furnace for a uniform bright red color. The other alternative is to send it to Chambers and have him redo the lock.......Fred
 
I would have contacted Chambers for some help before torching a frizzen of his. :nono:

Bill
 
Frizzens on American made locks are 1095 steel, through and through and don't need a half sole.
Save that for Italian and Spanish made guns with mild steel frizzens. :v

As mentioned in an earlier post, a propane torch probably won't heat the part hot enough to harden properly.

An acetelyne torch adjusted to a reducing flame will actually add a little carbon to the surface of the steel. That's a good thing.

I usually make a small "oven" by stacking a few fire brick to retain heat. The part does need to be heated to the point that a magnet is no longer attracted to the part. Quench in light oil heated to 130 degrees,or so. Transsmission fluid works ok.

IF that doesn't work, quench in warm water with about 1/8-1/4 inch of oil on the surface to reduce the shock of the water quench.

Kasnite can also be used to add carbon to the surface of the part. Again, a single propane torch probably won't produce enough heat. Two might, though I have never used propane for this.

Another option is to pack harden the part for about an hour in a can filled with pea sized bits of charcoal. The part needs to be surrounded with at least 1/2 inch of charcoal, preferably a minimum of an inch top and bottom. More is better.

Cover the can with a loose fitting lid that will fall off when the contents are dumped in a quench of warmed light oil, or warm water with oil floating on the surface.

Build a hot fire in your BBQ pit and rake coals around the can. Build up the fire around the sides and top, and keep the can red hot for at least an hour. Quench as above.

Charcoal briquettes won't produce enough heat,BTW.
Use lump charcoal or good hardwood. Don't use briquettes in the can either. Too many impuritties that will ruin the frizzen.

Temper in a 350 degree oven for an hour, then polish and temper the tail and pivot to a bright blue color.

Or, call Chambers. They will take care of the problem. :blah:

J.D.
 
Hhugh: The repair was quite simple. The lock had a Lifetime Warranty. Now that you have torched it I don't know...................

I would still send it back to Jim Chambers & ask him to repair it. It cost ya about $ 3.75 to ship it & in a week ya have it back & it works & it will be right & it will work. :wink:
 
Dane said:
Chris is probably right. Ouch that hurts admitting that (sorry Chris).


That's funny, I never have any problems admitting that I'm right... :hmm:

:grin:
 
Baker's Remarks on the Rifle by Ezekiel Baker, 1835 ed. (reprint)

Substitute "frizzen' for "hammer." Old terminology or maybe just British.

If the flint is not placed in a proper position to strike against. the hammer, it will be an additional cause, also, of the piece missing fire. Great attention should be paid that the cock and hammer are set in a proper position for the flint to strike the hammer so as to conduct the fire into the pan, and the flint be placed so as to have that effect. If it strikes the hammer too high, it will disperse the fire about, and, consequently, little of it will go into the pan; and that which does will be so chilled by the air, from having so far to fall before it goes into the priming, that it fires the powder very slow, and makes the piece appear to hang fire: and if it strikes the hammer too low, it will not go over, and of course the fire cannot go into the pan. To ascertain when the flint is fixed in a proper position, let it be struck over, and you will easily perceive how the fire is dispersed about: if it strikes the hammer so high that the fire is dispersed, then lay double the lead or leather that the flint is fixed in under the flint against the cock, which will lower the fore part of the flint, and cause it to strike the hammer lower: if it strikes too low, double the lead or leather, as before mentioned, under the flint at the fore end of the under jaw of the cock, which will raise it to a proper position to fire. As the jaws of the cocks are not all in the same position, and the flints are not all of the same thickness, nor of the same shape, a piece of paper, or any other soft substance, carefully placed under the flint at either end, as may be required, according to the foregoing directions, will fix it sufficiently firm. This remedy will be found useful in the flinting of all locks, as well as muskets, &c. as much depends on the flint being put in properly for the lock to fire true and well. The irregularity in the size of flints, however, causes great inconvenience, particularly for muskets; and complaints have been frequently made, with great justice, as to the detriment under which the service lies from the want of a regular standard. To obviate this evil I have adopted a gauge, by which flints may be cut to one uniform size; and the plan has been so highly approved by the Honorable Board of Ordnance and the East India Company, that they have gauges made for their use. The same gauge may be adapted to rifle guns, fusees, carbines, and pistols, and indeed to every description of fire arms; and must prove particularly advantageous where the jaws of the cocks are made right to receive them: for, if the cock, the hammer-face, and hammer toe, do not stand at right angles to resist the flint, they form a great denial to the firing of all locks; and the hammer and mainspring should be of equal temper to resist the flint of all guns.

That pieces frequently miss fire, when the flint is good, and the lock and hammer quite perfect, is undeniable-and very few are aware of the real cause; for it is not always the fault of the flint, or lock, but because the hammer-faces, from frequent firing, become soft, by the flint cutting through the case-hardening. The steel on the hammer-face being welded in, it frequently becomes heated or burnt, in some more than in others; so that the power of the steel is destroyed, and, consequently, the fire drawn from it is of a pale red; whereas fire drawn from good steel, or when the hammer-face is of a proper temperature, is of a blood red: and this shews that it is of the right temperature, inasmuch as there is more heat in the latter than in the former.

This is an important fact. many people, who fancy that their gun hangs fire, are thus deceived, as this frequently arises from the hammer-face being destroyed from the circumstances just mentioned; and when they think that their gun hangs fire, it arises only from the want of heat drawn from the hammer; which, being burnt, the flint makes little or no impression, particularly when the flint gets thick*. The same observations apply to all fire locks. I have heard it remarked by officers in the English army that the French muskets fired in the field of Waterloo, during heavy rain, when the English muskets would not.

* When the hammer-faces are so much burnt, case-hardening makes them so hard, that when struck with the flint it will not cut sufficient to draw fire as it ought to do. I have had many fowling-piece locks where the hammer-face has been so hard that no fire could be drawn from them; but on reducing their temper, they have invariably fired, though not so strong as previously to their being burnt.

Old Coot
 
I thoroughly enjoy reading old writings such as this.
Where else could one read things like, "...will be so chilled by the air, from having so far to fall..." and "...To obviate this evil I have adopted a gauge...".

We would learn much from the writings of the people who grew up and lived with the guns we enjoy. The lack of available writings does our knowledge great harm for want of more information such as this.

zonie :)
 
Baker was also the master of nineteenth century understatement.

A rifleman should be careful not to have his lock on full cock whilst loading; as, from the pressure of forcing down the ball, it might go off, which might be attended with bad consequences.


also,

Every rifleman should mark his rammer at the muzzle end of the barrel, when loaded, which will shew him when the ball is close down on the powder. After firing a few rounds, the filth from the powder will clog at the bottom of the barrel, and prevent the ball from going close on the powder: in this case, a little pressing with the rammer will be required to get the ball into its right place. More accidents happen from a neglect of this precaution than can be imagined: if the ball be not rammed close on the powder, the intervening air will frequently cause the barrel to burst: not, I confess, that there is so much danger with rifle barrels as with fowling pieces, the former being made much stronger; but, exclusive of any danger, it is an absolute requisite to insure a true flight of the ball, as no piece will carry perfect, unless this method be strictly adhered to. When the rammer is marked, as before mentioned, it will shew when the ball is close rammed to the powder; and if, by mistake, he should load his rifle twice, the error would instantly be detected.

Old Coot
 
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