Did frontiersmen really carry Neck knives?

[Joe Yanta]

I have been researching my very limited resource library to find any documentation on whether or not pioneers and frontiersmen actually use a neck carry system to carry a knife.

I have to admit I have made them, and they look great on PC outfits. Neck carry knives would also be practical.

I have seen belt carry and bag strap carry. I have also read or seen around the neck and under the arm carry for larger knives. In one of John Baldwins book he has a picture of a NW costal indian dagger that was carried on the chest by a strap that went around the neck. But haven't come across smaller knives carried around the neck early pioneers.

What is your take on this?

Joe

 

[LRB]

I think it would have been rare except among the French. If you are busy working with something while bent over, they seem to get in the way.

 

[Harddog]

Another thing to remember is that knives carried hung aroound the neck by Indians were not the small neck knives that everyone wears today, but were actually full sized belt knives just worn in a neck sheath. These prove to be really cumbersome and always get in the way, like Wick said, and bounce around while running.

Randy Hedden

 

[Henry]

"...pioneers and frontiersmen actually use a neck carry system to carry a knife.... "

Pioneers , I do not think so .

Frontiersmen ... wich frontier ? wich period ?

Frenchmen , like me , are described by Per Kalm
as carrying UP TO 3 knives , neck ,belt, and garter.
There could be one or two clasp knifes in rolled in the blanket .

French men , like me , do not carry those knifes to go to the market ot plough the field .

The knives are used at militia service , they are given by the king , some years they only get two clasp knives, As much as possible the militia men does not use something he paid with his own money , in service ,but he also tries to leave the
king's equipment at home , to be used by his family . He will bring a brocken gun in the hope to get free repairs .
Execption are those men who worked in the fur trade , who bring some of the objects that were given to them by the Indians , in hope to be
identified by the Indian allies as a friend .

So , if you are not wearing " war clothes "
( breech cloth & leggins ) you do not wear the neck knife .

 

Hey Joe, if you are running or bending over...all ya have to do is throw the neck sheathed knife down inside yer shirt. No biggee!! Out a the way and it don't flop around neither. :rotf:

 

[mark starr]

I think the neck knife is handy around camp. but on the other hand I've carried them on the hunt and on the trail I found them to cumbersome and awkward and heavy as the day goes on. I would think the early explorers and piooners would have thought the same. I prefer a good belt knife and possibly a small patch knife on my pouch. The neck knives look good though. :hmm:

 

[Bountyhunter]

Joe,

The folks over at Bents Old Fort told me a while back that neck knives were common there during the fur trade. The blacksmith there makes some knives that he claims are like the ones that the fur traders carried.

Maybe I should say that the blacksmith that was there the day I was there.

B

 

I wonder if the neck knife idea was a product of the Delaware and Shawnee Indian presence and therefore their influence on the material culture in that area during the fur trade years? :hmm: What did the neck knife cases look like that were being used around Bent's?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Hey Joe, if you are running or bending over...all ya have to do is throw the neck sheathed knife down inside yer shirt. No biggee!! Out a the way and it don't flop around neither. :rotf:

What if you had no shirt?
Does anyone know if the Native Americans wore neck knives before they started wearing cloth shirts? Could neck knives have started as a trade item, like the pipe hawk?

 

[Bountyhunter]

I suspect that you are on the right track there, as they did have a few eastern injuns out there at that time. The ones that he was showing me were smaller knives, maybe 4" blades, he was hammerin them outta old files. Curling the tang and putting some nice scales on them. I 'spose that overall they were 8" or better long, 7/8-1" blades maybe 3-4" long and he hung em in a quilled, brain tanned sheath around his neck. Actually, pretty nice usin type knife.

 

That's a good question Claude. The scalpers of course were trade knives but the idea of wearing them in a nech case seems to be a Eastern Indian idea. It seems that the whites coming over were wearing them in there belt scabbards or tucked in a boot. Too bad the pre-trade indians didn't leave some pictograph or petroglyph of a bunch of guys wearing neck cases. Do you know of any Europeans that wore the knife hanging from a pouch and suspended from the neck in pre-trade days?

 

[Henry]

In New-France , the neck knife is a typical adaptation of two cultures one to the other .

The French brought the knife ( always made in France , there are no local production ) and
the Indians brought the neck sheath and both groups
adopted the final product .

Same with the so called " Micmac pipe "
the Indians brought the pipe , the French brought the better quality southern growed tobacco and the
inexpensive workshop made stone pipes , and both
cultures used the final product .

For us , the neck knife is an Algonquin
( Montagnais , Abénaki, Malécite ) .

It took quite some time for the English
colonists to adopt Indians ways ( Snowshoes , breech cloth , mocassin ,mitasses , tomahawk etc. )
that the French had adopted much earlie .

 

Well, that certainly sounds like the same stuff that the Delaware INDIANS and the Shawnee INDIANS brought out with them from the Ohio and Indiana country before they moved on out to Missouri and Kansas. These two tribes of INDIANS were trapping the shiny mountains as early as 1810 and maybe earlier when their homeland was still Ohio and Indiana along the White River around Anderson and Muncie. What the he!! is an Injun?

 

[Joe Yanta]

John Baldwin's book titled "Earley Knives and Beaded Sheaths of the American Frontier" on page 16 he shows a beautiful quilled sheath. The caption reads "Early Eastern quilled sheath. The type worn around the neck usually housed a trade knife". Also on page 26 a very elaborate sheath, caption reading "N.W. Coast decorated sheaths are very rare"......"It is decorated with west coast trade beads and dentalium shells. Worn on the chest with the stra around ones neck." These two references could indicate that certain native americans wore neck carry knives on ceremonial occasions.

Joe

 

There are also some pictures of Delaware knife cases in Orchard's book on Quillwork and knife cases by other Great Lakes people in the Boo'Joo' Nee Jee book. These knife cases seem to have been used all through the eastern country and even out west by some tribal groups. They may have been more common with the NA's over a larger land base than we realize.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Too bad the pre-trade indians didn't leave some pictograph or petroglyph of a bunch of guys wearing neck cases.

I wonder if there are any first-hand accounts from Europeans, describing the natives wearing a knife around the neck, when contact was first made?

Do you know of any Europeans that wore the knife hanging from a pouch and suspended from the neck in pre-trade days?

I don't remember hearing this and I haven't research it myself.

 

I have read a couple of references to frontiersmen, specifically hard core Indian fighters, that wore neck knives, but they were very obscure references and i do not specifically recall the texts. I suppose it was not one of those thengs that really caught my attention at the time.

As Henry stated, there are several references to the French wearing a knife at the neck, garter and belt. They even hung their folding knives at their belt or neck.

Then there were the Scotts, with their habit of stashing a knife into any conceivable nook and crany of their clothing. Stocking knives, armpit knives, around the neck is not a real streach.

This is one of those things that there is just enough reference material on to not know for sure. Did it happen? Probably. Was it common/everyday/plain? Probably not. Is it worth messing up your day worrying about it? Doubtful.

 

[bnail]

This is one of those things that there is just enough reference material on to not know for sure. Did it happen? Probably. Was it common/everyday/plain? Probably not. Is it worth messing up your day worrying about it? Doubtful.

I agree Ghost. Also, this is one of those historical vogue items that many folks, myself included, bought into, and I think maybe the percentage of repro neck knives might exceed their historical counterparts. I had to have one of those fancy quilled neck sheaths (still too cheap to buy one); kind of glad I never picked up one, but I do have to admit though they're pretty handy. Lately, I've been thinking of transferring one of my knives to my shooting bag and stop the practice all together as I'm getting kind of tired of things dangling off my neck.

 

[shmrck1]

This is one of those things that there is just enough reference material on to not know for sure. Did it happen? Probably. Was it common/everyday/plain? Probably not. Is it worth messing up your day worrying about it? Doubtful.

ghost,
:hmm: :thumbsup: :hatsoff:
snake-eyes :v

 

It isn't worth messing up your day worrying about....but it is an interesting study. I am looking at cartouche drawings done by old cartographers and looking at drawings by John White (1600) and Peter Lindstrom (1650's).
Another source for the interested. Old maps.