Did the US purchase any German Military Muskets?

[cornstalk]

Does anyone know if the US Government ever purchased any German military muskets? Perhaps to use as trade guns for the Indians?

Thanks

 

[tenngun]

Dutch imported arms in to America during the revolution. So some guns out of Central Europe could have made it. ???
And there were Germans in the British army, I’m sure an over stressed supply officer wouldn’t have shook his head to one picked up on the battle field
After Trenton I’m sure those guns didn’t go to waste.
Generally German guns tended to be Brownbess on steroids. The general consensus is such guns were rejected by Indians as being too heavy I think we have about a hundred pages talking about what happened to Braddock’s guns

 

[cornstalk]

Dutch imported arms in to America during the revolution. So some guns out of Central Europe could have made it. ???
And there were Germans in the British army, I’m sure an over stressed supply officer wouldn’t have shook his head to one picked up on the battle field
After Trenton I’m sure those guns didn’t go to waste.
Generally German guns tended to be Brownbess on steroids. The general consensus is such guns were rejected by Indians as being too heavy I think we have about a hundred pages talking about what happened to Braddock’s guns

Thank you. I'm exploring pervious Braddock posts.

 

[Grayrock Volunteer]

The US government bought huge numbers of continental European arms during the Civil War. Germany had not been unified by the Prussians yet, so the "German" arms were actually from a variety of Germanic states. Prussian arms were the most common, with over 160,000 arms described as being from Prussia were purchased; the majority being M1809/39 Muskets. But a myriad of other models were purchased from other small states, a number of which are extremely rare and collectible today.

 

[desi23]

If my memory is right there were military pistols purchased from at least one of the German states (Germany wasn't a unified country until much later) during the war for independence. I can't recall any documented purchase of muskets during that time The later purchase of germanic arms for the civil war is fairly well known.

 

[flintlock75]

The colonial governments made many foreign purchases of arms. During the F&I war an order of 10000 “Dutch” muskets were shipped to the colonies for use by the militias. Many were used and needed repairs.

 

[godutch]

The colonial governments made many foreign purchases of arms. During the F&I war an order of 10000 “Dutch” muskets were shipped to the colonies for use by the militias. Many were used and needed repairs.

'Gotta love them Dutch! Always ready to help out their English 'friends'. Of course the English had no problem sending substandard arms to the colonies either (chuckle).

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think this is an interesting question. We know there were a number or European guns imported during the Civil War. The Potsdam muskets come to mind, as well as the Austrian Lorenz. I know at least one Lorenz (a rifle musket) ended up in the hands of Abram Burnett, who was a tribal leader with the Prairie Potawatomi people. He served as a scout for the US Army during the 1860's and it is my understanding his rifle musket was issued to him in conjunction with that service. For more about Chief Burnett, and a few pictures of his Lorenz (which apparently still exists), check out this page: Wiskigeamatyuk

The topic of trade muskets is very broad. I have found that there were at least some German muskets that were evidently distributed or traded to native American people, likely by the French, but I don't know for sure. This is the first one I had ever heard of:

That was in one of Gary Hendershott's catalogs. I posted a query about these on the ALR forum a while back ( German Trade Gun? ), which got a few responses. There is also a German "trade musket" pictured in Milton Von Damm's book, The Fur Trade - A History of Arms and Trade Goods.

I pondered trying to find someone to build one of these at one time. Knob Mountain Muzzleloading makes a pre-carved stock (scroll about 2/3 of the way down this page and look in the left-hand column), and R.E. Davis makes a buttplate that might work. The Jim Chambers "Early Germanic" lock looks like a passable match. I found a few other components when I was looking for them, but I eventually abandoned the idea, and hadn't even thought of it any more until I saw this thread.

I don't know anything about German military flintlock muskets, really, and I hope I haven't vectored this discussion too far off topic. However, I do find trade guns interesting, and you really don't find much about trade guns from Germany. I think it is likely the one pictured above, from the Hendershott catalog, was intended for civilian use or the fur trade, as I see no provision for sling swivels or a bayonet, which I would expect to see on a military gun.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Robby]

That was very interesting Notchy, thanks.
Robby

 

[Notchy Bob]

'Gotta love them Dutch! Always ready to help out their English 'friends'. Of course the English had no problem sending substandard arms to the colonies either (chuckle).

A friend of ours, a horse trainer by profession, is from the Netherlands. She likes to say, “If it ain’t Dutch, it ain’t much!”

She’s a character…

Notchy Bob

 

[dave951]

During the Late Unpleasantness, both sides were on arms buying binges and the Federals bought large quantities of Potsdams and Lorenzs. After the War, many were surplused off as the military was looking to replace muzzle loading arms with cartridge guns. Muskets went pretty much everywhere. Many had rifling bored out and turned into shotguns. Bannerman bought more than a few. So it's not beyond possible that muskets found their way west and would be mistaken for "trade guns"

 

[griffiga]

A friend of ours, a horse trainer by profession, is from the Netherlands. She likes to say, “If it ain’t Dutch, it ain’t much!”

She’s a character…

Notchy Bob

Interesting that my grandmother always referred to Cottage Cheese as Dutch Cheese.

 

[Notchy Bob]

During the Late Unpleasantness, both sides were on arms buying binges and the Federals bought large quantities of Potsdams and Lorenzs. After the War, many were surplused off as the military was looking to replace muzzle loading arms with cartridge guns. Muskets went pretty much everywhere. Many had rifling bored out and turned into shotguns. Bannerman bought more than a few. So it's not beyond possible that muskets found their way west and would be mistaken for "trade guns"

Here is another Lorenz, which sports carving and tack-work which we assume indicated native ownership:

... and a close-up of the buttstock, with a better look at the incised carving and tack-work:

That carved cross is on both sides of the buttstock:

Who knows, for sure, how this Lorenz rifle musket ended up in Indian hands? My guess would be that the native owner was an Army scout, like Chief Burnett. In any event, it is a very nice piece, and is in much better shape than many of the "Indian guns" we see. You can read a little more about it on the seller's website: Indian Musket with Carved and Tacked Stock

The seller describes it as ".50 caliber," which is likely an error. I think these rifles, as issued, were typically .547" or thereabouts. However, the comments are interesting anyway.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob

 

[Monkeyman]

They probably didn't need to. With the thousands of Prussian, Brunswick, Hessian, and other Germanic muskets captured in the American Revolution, America probably had more than they needed to trade with the Indians.

 

[Artificer]

The colonial governments made many foreign purchases of arms. During the F&I war an order of 10000 “Dutch” muskets were shipped to the colonies for use by the militias. Many were used and needed repairs.

To expand on this some more, ever heard of a person of German ancestry being called "Dutch" or "a Dutchman?" Growing up as I did in Iowa, I never understood that because NO ONE from the Netherlands would ever wish to be mistaken as German or vice versa, thanks to WWII.

American involvement with German made arms came as a result of George I of Hanover (a German State) being given the crown of Great Britain in 1714.

And now it gets even more confusing....grin. The winter of 1739-40 was so cold it stopped the water wheels in the frozen rivers of England from being able to work trip hammers and other industrial equipment. That pretty much stopped Arms production right in the middle of the panic to obtain arms for the War of Jenkins Ear that "morphed" into what is called "The War of the Austrian Sucession" in Europe and "King George's War" here in the Colonies.

So British Ordnance bought around 12,000 "Dutch" muskets and another 36,000 "Dutch" barrels, the latter over three years and to be made into various British Military Arms. HOWEVER, the term "Dutch" didn't mean JUST from the Netherlands to them. The term actually included the Netherlands, Belgium, the Germanic States and Switzerland. IOW, "Dutch" to them was a "Catch All" phrase for imported Arms.

When British America was screaming for Arms at the beginning of the FIW, British Ordnance sent them 10,000 of those "left over" "Dutch" arms that flintlock75 mentioned. So some of them had been made in Germany or at least parts of those muskets. These arms were parceled out all over the colonies and never returned to England, as far as anyone can document.

Now during the AWI, the Dutch often smuggled/sold powder, flints and arms to North America in the early part of the war. Some of those arms may and probably were of German origin. BTW, the Dutch Merchants' involvement in the AWI sorely needs more study and documentation, as it seems it has almost been forgotten.

Of course, German Arms came over with the "Hessians" or Germanic Mercenary Soldiers hired by King George III. England also bought German Rifles and probably some German made muskets, the latter to issue to Loyalist forces. Some of these were captured by U.S. forces during the AWI.

Any of these German Made arms still available and in American Hands after the AWI may have been made available to Indian Allies, but I don't know of any documentation for that. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I don't know of documentation of it happening.

Gus

 

[Grenadier1758]

Of course, @Artificer, a person from the country that we call Germany will refer to themselves as Deutsch and their country as Deutschland. Little wonder that these Dutch muskets are so confusing.

 

[Artificer]

Of course, @Artificer, a person from the country that we call Germany will refer to themselves as Deutsch and their country as Deutschland. Little wonder that these Dutch muskets are so confusing.

Indeed, though Frau Kessler who was my German Teacher in 10th and 11th grade over 50 years ago would expect me to write that Deutsch is properly pronounced "Doytch" (like Boy with a D) and Deutschland is pronounced "Doytch-lahnd."

Also, for years I thought Pennsylvania "Dutch" was just because English speakers could pronounce it better than "Deutsch." Well, not quite, as it seems. Amish and Mennonites from the German States often stopped over in Switzerland for a while, then went on to the Netherlands or even England before coming here in the 17th and 18th century. So, while their native language is similar to German and takes some words/phrases from it, it also includes Swiss and real Dutch Netherlands words/phrases. Some Pennsylvania Dutch Amish and Mennonites can speak German, but it is not their first language.

Have we now thoroughly confused most folks? LOL!

Gus

 

[Rudyard]

' Sondry Dutch muskets" where probably German states manufacture and a lot of old parts got 'got up:' in the Napolionic Wars . UK Ordnance buying many for Volunteers or raised Tennentry forces such a the Percy Tennantry Known to have had such rifles . Shickler Brothers ? rings a bell refer De Witt Baileys work on British Military flintlock rifles 'covers these .
Rudyard