Did they all have patchboxes?

[StarnesRowan]

I'm starting a new build on a early lancaster and was wondering fid all of the earl rifles have patchboxes

 

[oldwood]

If the customer deleted the patchbox to save a dollar , the rifle was sold w/o any box.

 

[tenngun]

I think we have a predator trap for surviving early rifles. So we have best, not po’r boys. However fancy was in style.
I don’t think I ever saw a pre 1800 American rifle without a patch box.
This proves nothing however

 

[Eterry]

Here's my take on this, and it's worth every penny it cost you.

I think MANY early guns were made plainly, with little or no engraving, sans patchbox, set triggers and other embellishments. Carving was done by the apprentice, so to show off there would be carving on most guns.

But... these were working guns and were cut down, worn out, restocked, freshed out and donated to scrap drives in the world wars.

The highly engraved, patchboxed, double set triggered guns full of embellishments stayed in the case, and ended up in museums and held onto to.

So the fact that most guns in books are practically show pieces are due to them being show pieces. The common, working gun had no place in early books and only recently came into their own.

That and $3.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Ernie,
If those "fancy" guns were never used. why were most converted to percussion? Why convert a gun you never used. Also keep in mind, many of the now flint guns, had been converted to percussion, then reconverted to flint in the 20th century. A surviving long rifle with its original flintlock is a real prize. Heck, there are quite a few rifles made as percussion that now sport flintlocks! There are many surviving plain long rifles, mostly from the 19th century but very few 18th century guns. The majority of surviving 18th century long rifles have some decoration, not necessarily fancy or extensive, but decoration nonetheless. There are a few surviving rifles without patch boxes but the majority, even the simple ones, have them. I believe it was an expected feature on rifles at the time.

dave

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The only original guns I ever owned that could be dated to the late 1700's, were devoid of patch boxes. Which is probably why I was able to afford them. Gun collectors who see a period style patch box suddenly add thousands to the price. Both had rather severe Roman nose style butt stocks. Both had locks that had been converted to percussion. One was a smooth bore with a long tapered round barrel. The other was a rifle about 42 caliber.

 

[Eterry]

Dave,
As always you make a great point, and I am certain you have had the opportunity to examine more original pieces than I ever will. There has always been master craftsmen such as yourself who turn out outstanding examples, but also some who would cut a few corners to make extra $. And everyone couldn't afford the top of the mark gun, so they bought what they could afford.

But you've definitely given me something to consider.

 

[4575wcf]

Far more Pennsylvania rifles were built with a patchbox than were built without, but an occasional rifle does surface. I have just finished reading a book I procured from our local library "Gunsmiths of Lancaster and York Counties, Pennsylvania" by James B. Whisker and Stacy B. C. Wood. I am currently in the process of researching Jacob Leather, Jacob Doll, Henry Pickel, and Martin Fry who were partnered around the area of York, and producing muskets, Indian muskets, and rifles under contract, along with standard fancy Pennsylvania rifles. A pictured rifle attributed to Jacob Doll is short and unadorned, without any grip rail. Originally a flintlock, I think the rifle probably dates back to about 1800 or so. Certainly different, but my theory is that these four men were experimenting with the militia rifle concept more than most builders were. Yet to be proven.

 

[StarnesRowan]

Here is why I ask the question. I will be attending the Jim chambers rifle building class at the end if September. I have a rifle with a patch box and want somthing diffrent. I have always admied the plane beauty of the barn gun I thought thise would be a lot more prevalnt in the south anyway.

 

[ord sgt]

Quoting Chuck Dixon..."To some, Schimmel meant "barn gun", a gun left out in the barn". "What does a Schimmel look like? The lock, stock and barrel are the same as any fine long rifle, the lines or styles may indicate who, when, or where it was made. But there the similarities ends. There is only a trigger, a simple trigger guard, one thimble and sights on the rifle. No buttplate, sideplate, or even washers under the lock screws, no nose cap or patchbox, etc. are in evidence. The simple shotgun type trigger guard and one upper thimble generally were made of iron, but brass was also used."

 

[bud in pa]

The only knowledge that I have of history is my age! It would seem to me that if patch boxes were on high end guns there must have been a lot of rich colonists. I remember a discussion at Dixon’s about schimels that didn’t even have trigger guards. Patch boxes common,to my way of thinking probably not, just an opinion.

 

[StarnesRowan]

has anyone herd the theroy that some of these guns started out life as a Jeager that after it came to the colonies was broken and the owner had it resocked in the style of were he was and because of him being a farmer he didn't pay for a patchbox

 

[4575wcf]

The southern mountain rifles made famous by Bean and others usually had simple iron furniture and a grease hole in the stock for patches rather than the patch box. Dixie's Tennessee Mountain Rifle was a fairly typical example. The beauty of these rifles is in the geometry and the simple lines, usually known as a "poor boy." Stocked in Mountain Ash really sets them apart, my older TOTW catalog has a shining example.

 

[tenngun]

We do see a move to plain after the end of the eighteenth century. Shaker furniture and plain federal style homes became popular. And I do believe surviving plain guns barn guns poor boys ,what have you( maybe even a canoe gun) went in to metal drives. However we do see gingerbread on all sorts of devices. Molding was seen on trade and military arms. Fancy design on “plain drinking cups’ Ect was seen.

 

[rickpa]

While perusing RCA I & II, I ran across 2 Lehigh rifles without patchboxes.
Either would made a fine rifle to emulate. No.'s 58 and 59.

 

[StarnesRowan]

RCA?

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Here's my take on this, and it's worth every penny it cost you.

I think MANY early guns were made plainly, with little or no engraving, sans patchbox, set triggers and other embellishments. Carving was done by the apprentice, so to show off there would be carving on most guns.

But... these were working guns and were cut down, worn out, restocked, freshed out and donated to scrap drives in the world wars.

The highly engraved, patchboxed, double set triggered guns full of embellishments stayed in the case, and ended up in museums and held onto to.

So the fact that most guns in books are practically show pieces are due to them being show pieces. The common, working gun had no place in early books and only recently came into their own.

That and $3.00 will get you a cup of coffee.

I agree. Think about something that was basically a tool for everyday use. aside from keeping it functioning I do not think asthetics were at the forefront...

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

You were lucky if you most of your teeth back then...much less brass furniture on a hunting rifle....

 

[oldwood]

Was at Dixon's maybe in late 1980's. Chuck Dixon had an amazing Lehigh school gun hanging in the rafters. He showed it to me , and if I remember it correctly , it was a robust looking gun with a stock of fine grade termite tunnel curly maple originally made just as it was from the blank. No butt plate , no forearm cap. Did have a trigger guard w/ single trigger. It showed a light orangish colored stain. No patch box , and originally a flint lock.
I can just picture some poor 18th century fellow making a deal for this gun at the rifle builder shop. ,no funds , maybe a couple deer hides , and a promise to pay for the balance of the price in the late winter , after the fall hunt. If the customer was a hard up farmer down on his luck having just enough corn to feed the family through winter , and his crop was his money and survival , the gunmaker would wait for a couple bushel of corn to complete the payment. Was reading somewhere in the Moravian gunsmith archives years few ago , that perhaps there was around only one gun per every 100 settlers in the 1760's. Since there was no actual money , a lot of payment for work was in trade of commodities. ....................I'm outin the weeds again............oldwood

 

[Pete G]

RCA?

Rifles of Colonial America