Differences in revolver models?

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

pepperbelly

45 Cal.
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
Messages
895
Reaction score
4
I know the Walker was the first "6 gun", and is the largest revolver. The dragoons are next to have been made and a little smaller, but I don't know the differences between the 1st, 2nd, etc.
I also don't know the main differences between the 1851, 1860, etc. and the variations. The 1858 is easiest for me to actually see the differences since it has a top strap.

Can someone, or someones, explain the differences, history, strengths and weaknesses of the various cap and ball revolvers?

I know this is a big request. I would also appreciate it if someone could post a link to a site with this info since it would be a lot to post here.
Of course it could also generate some interesting discussion.

Jim
 
Pepperbelly:
The 1858 is Remingtons answer to Colt and interestingly was not actually made and sold until 1860.

To keep this fairly short, I'll jump over the history of the Remingtons and deal with the Colt.

The Texans had used Colt's earlier Paterson revolvers and appreciated the added firepower the .36 caliber guns had but felt they needed something with more power.
Part of this desire for more power stemmed from the need to down horses of the enemy and the .36 caliber guns weren't very good at this job.
In 1847 Colt designed the "Walker" to meet the suggestions of Cptn Samual Walker from Texas.
Because Colt didn't have a factory these guns were made by Whitney.
The cylinder stop notches were oval shaped.
There were a total of 1,100 Walkers made.

The Texans were happy with the new gun but when Colt tried to sell them to the U.S. Military they weren't.
Among the things the Military wanted was a loading lever that wouldn't fall every time the gun was shot and they weren't happy with the massive weight of the original gun.

Colt reduced the cylinder and barrel length to lighten the gun and redesigned the loading lever so it would have a positive latch.
The first of these redesigned guns are referred to as Whitneyville Dragoons. There were about 240 of them made in late 1847.
These Whitneyville Dragoons used quite a few of the parts common to the Walker.

The First Model Dragoon had a squared rear on the frame mating with the grips in a vertical joint.
Between 1848 and 1850 about 7,000 were made.

The Second Model Dragoon was similar to the First Model except the cylinder stop notches were redesigned to a rectangular shape and they had a "ramp" leading down into them to help the cylinder bolt engage them.
Of the big Dragoons, this was the last model to use the square backed trigger guard.
About 2,700 pistols were made between 1850 and 1851.

The Third Model Dragoon of course was similar to the Second Model except the trigger guard was rounded and the latch for the loading lever was redesigned. There were about 10,500 of these made between 1851 to 1861.

These Dragoons were primarily for the Military and weight of course was no object to a horse solder.
The average man on the street wouldn't be able to carry them around easily so Colt offered the "Baby Dragoon Revolver".
It was a .31 cal 5 shot pocket pistol.

This gun was made in several barrel lengths from 3 to 6 inches. Some of them had loading levers and some didn't. They had square backed trigger guards.
A total of around 15,000 were made between 1847 and 1850.
Thousands of these pistols went West in the 1849 gold rush.

The Colt's 1849 Pocket Pistol was similar to the Baby Dragoon except it used a rounded trigger guard and was a 6 shot pistol.
Between 1950 and 1873 Colt produced over 325,000 of these in Hartford and 11,000 in London, England.

In 1850 or so, Colt decided a .36 caliber pistol might be useful to the Military and to the general public because it could be made much lighter than the Dragoon pistols and could be carried in a holster on a persons hip.
This led to the 1851 Navy, a .36 cal 6 shot pistol that was loved by almost everyone who held it.
It was easy to carry and had enough firepower to do almost anything a person would want to do, short of shooting a horse in battle.
It was so admired that the Confederate States used it as a model specification for anyone desiring to make pistols for the Confederacy.

The term "Navy" was used by Colt and it is generally agreed that he was referring to the engraved Navy Battle on the cylinder. Of course it wouldn't have been out of Colts pattern to be wishing to sell these pistols to the Navy.
Engraving a scene on Colts cylinders was Colt's way of making a easily seen trademark and it was done on most of his pistols.

The First and Second Model 1851 Navy had a square backed trigger guard while the remainder had rounded trigger guards.

Between 1850 and 1873 Colt, Hartford made over 215,340 and Colt's London factory made about 42,000.

In 1855, Colt offered a new pistol. This was a sidehammer pocket pistol designed by Elisha K. Root. Its major difference was that it had a top strap over the cylinder and a spur trigger.
The cylinder pin was also removed from the rear to remove the cylinder. The inner workings of these pistols were quite complex and I have read that these Root pistols had more than their fair share of problems.
It was a 5 shot pistol offered in two calibers. The early model was a .28 caliber while the later models were .31 caliber. Between 1855 and 1870 about 40,000 of these were made.

Colt's patent ran out in 1857 and the competition from other companies started, so in 1860 Colt offered a new pistol which incorporated the ease of carry and pointability of the 1851 but the .44 caliber of the Dragoon.
This was called the Colt's 1860 Army Revolver.
In order to keep the weight light and still keep the new gun a .44 caliber, 6 shot design, Colt made the frame slightly larger than the old Navy and introduced a stepped or "rebated" cylinder. This kept the recoil shield
and frame about the same size as the old Navy.
As all of the prior guns Colt made (except for the Root Pocket pistol) looked very much alike and were getting somewhat "old fashioned and outdated" in addition to the new larger caliber Colt improved the loading lever by making it a tooth
driven "creeping" design that was stronger and he streamlined the barrel into a smooth flowing round design without the sharp edges or the flats of the older pistols.
The Army liked the new pistol light weight even though it was not as powerful as the Dragoons.
With the start of the Civil War, production was ordered into high gear and during the life of the Colt 1860 between 1860 thru 1873 over 200,500 of them were produced.

Fans of the old 1851 Navy were not disappointed when in 1862 Colt came out with a scaled down 1860 in .36 caliber. This was the Colt 1861 Navy Model. It had all of the good features of the 1851 and the 1860 in a
light weight easy to carry gun. Between 1861 and 1873 about 39,000 of these were made.
Surprisingly, the Army and the Navy only officially bought a few hundred of these guns but during this period, many solders bought their own sidearms.

In 1862, Colt introduced a lighter, smaller 5 shot .36 caliber gun known as the Police Revolver. This gun is about the same frame size as the older .31 pocket pistols and it used a rebated cylinder
like the 1860 to permit the use of the .36 caliber in the smaller frame. Because light weight was a main driver in this new Police model the cylinders were often fluted.

Apparently there were some folks who liked the older 1849 style pocket pistol but wanted it in .36 caliber so the Colt Model 1862 Pocket Navy was offered.
This pistol looks a great deal like
the old 1849 Pocket Pistol but it has a 5 shot rebated .36 caliber cylinder and barrel.
The 1862 Police totaled about 19,000 copies and 1862 Pocket Navy production totaled around 28,000.
zonie
 
I'm glad you kept it short Zonie!

Uberti has the history of these revolvers in movie format over on their website. They are very informative.
 
since you seem to be aware of the '58 Remington Army I'll give some info about it (from what little I know). Remington's design was influenced by a need for a revolver that loaded faster than the strap-less guns, this one a pistolero could carry a spare cylinder(s) and exchange fairly fast for that time due to the movable cylinder pin. cylinders were designed with close tolerances for that time so spares would interchange easily. also it was a revolver that featured safety notches on the cylinder so all cylinders could safely be loaded and the hammer down on a recess, this for rough carry. the sighting notch on the topstrap was an innovation and later adjustable rear sight was added which led to better accuracy. the Ruger Old Army is an updated version of this one with a coil mainspring and the only American made repro (if it can be called that) of a BP era revolver.
 
Blizzard of 93 said:
...'58 Remington Army...the Ruger Old Army is an updated version of this one with a coil mainspring and the only American made repro (if it can be called that) of a BP era revolver.

I'd have to disagree that the ROA is an updated Remington '58 New Army. The ROA is it's own design, resembling a Blackhawk much more closely than a Remington '58. There really is no lineage between the ROA and the Remington. At least, in my opinion.
 
Carrying on with the Remington, the first pistols made were called the Remington Beals Pocket Revolver (named after it's inventor and patent holder).
This was a somewhat odd looking single action, .31 caliber, 5 shot pistol which used a full frame with a top strap. It was first made in 1857 and went thru three fairly extensive revisions before it went out of production in 1860 after a production of over 7,500.
This Pocket Revolver is not the later "New Model Pocket Revolver" being reproduced by the Italian companies although its third model is somewhat similar to it.

In 1860, Remington also produced a double action .31 caliber, 5 shot pocket pistol. Called the Remington-Rider Pocket Revolver it was named after its designer Joseph Rider of Ohio.
This little gun's most notable features was a full trigger guard, double action trigger and extremely short grip.
It was produced from 1860 thru 1873 with about 20,000 being made. Most of these Rider pistols were later reworked into metallic cartridge guns.

The gun we call the "1858 Remington" was never called a 1858 Remington. The "1858" refers to the date of Beals patent on the design.

It started life as the Remington-Beals Navy Model Revolver, a .36 caliber, 6 shot full framed gun.
Enlarging the frame, cylinder and barrel a bit allowed the creation of the Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver in .44 caliber.
These guns went into production in 1861.

Remington made a revision to the loading lever to allow easy removal of the cylinder pin to facilitate rapid replacement of the cylinder to reload the gun and offered it to the Army calling it the Remington-Beals 1861 Army Revolver.

The Army wasn't impressed with several things about this new model. The biggest complaint was the cylinder pin followed by the fact that the gun tended to bind up and not rotate the cylinder after a few shots had been fired.

The cylinder pin problem was due to the method of retaining it. The top of the loading lever cleared the barrel by about 1/4 of an inch which allowed the pin to be retracted without dropping the loading lever. This increased the speed for changing the cylinder to reload the gun but it also allowed the pin to move forward on its own without the shooters knowledge.
When this happened, the cylinder would bind up or worse, even fall out of the gun unexpectedly.

The existing early 1861 guns were reworked to add a screw just ahead of the end of the cylinder pin in the top of the loading lever. This screws head blocked the movement of the pin.
The loading lever was redesigned to remove the gap with the barrel just forward of the end of the cylinder pin to prevent its movement. By dropping the loading lever the pin could be easily removed and this lever was used on all of the subsequent Remington Beals.

Although this helped to make the gun less objectionable to the Army it still had the problem of locking up due to fouling.
To solve this problem, Remington redesigned the frame to move it away from the front face of the cylinder and expose the barrels threads.
This allowed the exposed threads to remove the fouling on the front of the cylinder by scraping it clean.

This new frame coupled with the improved cylinder pin retention was called the Remington New Army Model and between 1863 and 1875 about 132,000 were produced.
It is this model that most of the Italian reproductions represent however, if you buy a older Remington reproduction it may have the older style frame and basically is a copy of the old Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver and, yes, it does tend to bind up fairly rapidly.

In the photo below, you can see the "old" frame on the right and the "New Model Army) with the exposed barrel threads on the left.
REMINGTON.jpg


The little Remington New Model Pocket Revolver currently being sold is a faithful reproduction of a .31 caliber 5 shot spur trigger gun that Remington made in both brass framed and steel framed versions from 1863 thru 1873.
About 25,000 were produced.
zonie
 
mykeal said:
I'd have to disagree that the ROA is an updated Remington '58 New Army. The ROA is it's own design, resembling a Blackhawk much more closely than a Remington '58. There really is no lineage between the ROA and the Remington. At least, in my opinion.

having owned a Blackhawk and owning both the '58 Rem and an ROA I suppose we'll just have to disagree. replace the coil spring of the Ruger and the cylinder pin lock and there's little difference.
 
The ROA frame looks like a cross between the Remington and the BH. Nothing else on it comes close to a Remington unless you want to call the web under the loading lever Remington. IMHO saying a ROA is similar to a 58 Remington is like saying an orange is similar to a grapefruit.
 
so the removable cylinder pin and cylinder notches and sighting notch in the top strap, even the shape of the top strap and loading relief cut ain't alike?
I have 1 of each ('58 and ROA) hanging on wall in front of me, they sure resemble each other to me. parts won't interchange of course but dern close. :hmm:
 
To me it in no way resembles a Remington. It may have a few characteristics but it dang sure don't look like one.
 
Back
Top