Disgusted-lost a deer!
- Thread starter JerryToth
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
To piggyback onto what DaveK said: over ten years of bowhunting with a lot of ole' time bowhunters (who have forgotten more than I'll know) has taught me that deer do some surprising and unexpected things when hit. I once had a deer run almost 150 yds that upon inspection I found that the 150 PSP corelokt had gone through the top half of the heart.
I always try for Double lung hits with a bow and I have always recovered the deer ( good bloodtrail) within 100 yards. I often find them much closer because I give them TIME.
As far as the shoulder thing, I could not agree more-a friend of mine used to intentionally shoot deer with a .308 in the shoulders. He quit that practice after loosing one in Maine. They found the deer the next day, almost two miles later, but not before the yotes had
. That buck had pushed himself in the snow on his hind legs for that long. My friend was amazed as was I, but he quit shooting them in the shoulder. :m2c:
I always try for Double lung hits with a bow and I have always recovered the deer ( good bloodtrail) within 100 yards. I often find them much closer because I give them TIME.
As far as the shoulder thing, I could not agree more-a friend of mine used to intentionally shoot deer with a .308 in the shoulders. He quit that practice after loosing one in Maine. They found the deer the next day, almost two miles later, but not before the yotes had
. That buck had pushed himself in the snow on his hind legs for that long. My friend was amazed as was I, but he quit shooting them in the shoulder. :m2c:last year i first muzzleloader deer was shot through the heart at 35 yds and it still ran 80+ yards....i know this cause i wanted the heart to eat and it was trashed when i field dressed it....it's just amazing how far they can go with a real good hit.......................bob
GobblerKnob
40 Cal.
- Joined
- May 17, 2004
- Messages
- 342
- Reaction score
- 0
3 years ago in the flintlock season, I shot one square through the heart, the ball breaking the opposite shoulder as it passed through. There was about 8" of powder on the ground. The deer ran off as if scalded, but tipped over after the 100 yard sprint, within sight of me.
I walked over to where it was standing when I shot it and followed thr trail through the snow to where it was dead. I did not find one drop of blood along the entire route. Not even a pin drop of blood! I was thankful there was snow and and that it dropped dead within sight. Sure, I probably would have found it regardsless, but my point is, don't always count on a blood trail. It is critical to mark the last place you saw the deer before it disappeared. Many times, it won't bleed for 40 - 50 yards into its departure. In this case, it didn't bleed at all externally, but the entire chest cavity was filled with blood.
Rick
I walked over to where it was standing when I shot it and followed thr trail through the snow to where it was dead. I did not find one drop of blood along the entire route. Not even a pin drop of blood! I was thankful there was snow and and that it dropped dead within sight. Sure, I probably would have found it regardsless, but my point is, don't always count on a blood trail. It is critical to mark the last place you saw the deer before it disappeared. Many times, it won't bleed for 40 - 50 yards into its departure. In this case, it didn't bleed at all externally, but the entire chest cavity was filled with blood.
Rick
Well fellows, thanks for all the responses. The tips/advice that several of you'all offered should help me avoid repeating this mistake again in the future, and the encouragement of several of you should help me to resist quitting deer hunting altogether. So thanks.
It's Tuesday, Oct 26, and I hit this deer on Wednesday, Oct 20. I just got back from looking for it again. I know the meat is long spoiled by now, but I'm just trying to figure out what happened.
The deer went at least 350 yards, and probably up a hill.
I do believe that I hit that "no man's land" zone that Leadball and Rat alluded to. 20 years ago, I hit a deer with a .308, 150 grain bullet at about 40 yards in the about the same spot. That deer went about 500 yards. Now that I've relived a similar situation, I recall being amazed about the distance it traveled at that time also. So there must really be something to this "no man's zone"!
I've learned a lot about how I'll try to place the shot the next time.
First, the next season will have snow, in January. That's good.
Second, my rifle is a 1 in 70 twist. I chose 82 grains as a balance load.... excellent accuracy and not just needlessly burning more powder to gain velocity that I didn't think I would need. It does shoot equally well with 90 grains and I think I'll go there for a hunting load. It might make the difference for a pass through.
Third, I appreciate Cowhand's advice to avoid going for the shoulder blade. I was thinking about trying to make the shot on the heart while the near side leg is forward, and trying to crack the far side leg on the backside of the heart. I've done that in the past and it definitely slowed the deer's dash.
Fourth, this January's season should have snow, but by next October I'm planning on building a 54. Fellows at the local buckskinner's club seem to feel that the 54 takes a few yards off of the deer's dash... so hopefully that may help too.
Again, thanks for everything fellows. It might sound stupid or foolish to a non-sportsman, but this has been a very emotionally taxing and draining experience for me. I do appreciate the support you'all have given.
Regards, and safe shooting to all,
Jerry.
It's Tuesday, Oct 26, and I hit this deer on Wednesday, Oct 20. I just got back from looking for it again. I know the meat is long spoiled by now, but I'm just trying to figure out what happened.
The deer went at least 350 yards, and probably up a hill.
I do believe that I hit that "no man's land" zone that Leadball and Rat alluded to. 20 years ago, I hit a deer with a .308, 150 grain bullet at about 40 yards in the about the same spot. That deer went about 500 yards. Now that I've relived a similar situation, I recall being amazed about the distance it traveled at that time also. So there must really be something to this "no man's zone"!
I've learned a lot about how I'll try to place the shot the next time.
First, the next season will have snow, in January. That's good.
Second, my rifle is a 1 in 70 twist. I chose 82 grains as a balance load.... excellent accuracy and not just needlessly burning more powder to gain velocity that I didn't think I would need. It does shoot equally well with 90 grains and I think I'll go there for a hunting load. It might make the difference for a pass through.
Third, I appreciate Cowhand's advice to avoid going for the shoulder blade. I was thinking about trying to make the shot on the heart while the near side leg is forward, and trying to crack the far side leg on the backside of the heart. I've done that in the past and it definitely slowed the deer's dash.
Fourth, this January's season should have snow, but by next October I'm planning on building a 54. Fellows at the local buckskinner's club seem to feel that the 54 takes a few yards off of the deer's dash... so hopefully that may help too.
Again, thanks for everything fellows. It might sound stupid or foolish to a non-sportsman, but this has been a very emotionally taxing and draining experience for me. I do appreciate the support you'all have given.
Regards, and safe shooting to all,
Jerry.
I wouldnt give up the 50 with prbs. I like to aim low and right behind the shoulder. I dont believe in the able to hit a pie plate line. I like to have my shots in a smaller area. Come to think of it, any deer that i hit and had to track that was shot with my ole 270 didnt leave a blood trail either. the farthest i had to trail a deer with the 270 was around 150 yards. The farthest with 50 cal roundballs was maybe 60 yards. I feel the roundball forces me to wait for the exact right shot :m2c:
Amen. You've only got one try and youmust choose wisely. Looking at deer skeletons and x-ray views of organs will help you know WHERE to shoot, but not WHEN to shoot. Getting that ball into the vitals without the deer having made you, and having a clear path for the ball to arc through ground cover, and being at a range you're practiced at (and have estimated correctly) will make for short blood trails.
And, although we all know none of the esteemed members of this forum would suffer from it, there is the mental and physical effects of "buck fever" when that deer comes into view. I still get a wild rush when the first deer of the season approaches. Tight chest, blood throbbing in my ears. They look closer, they look bigger, and if it's a "GO" shot I have to take the time to mentally cool myself so I don't get the shakes. After that first one I still get a rush, but not as severe. I guess if it ever got to the point I felt nothing I'd give it up and take up golf.
And speaking of golf. Practice follow through. Many hunters whip their heads up immediately to see if they can spot the hit & effects. Sometimes simultaneous to pulling the trigger. That shot ain't goin where you wanted. Mentally say to yourself "one-thousand-one" before you lower the gun after the "bang." In fact, I keep counting off seconds after I lower the gun for as long as I hear movement and listen for that sweet pile-up.
Yes I would say that a 54 round ball is better than 50 round ball with greater ballistic coeficent. It is also a better all round caliber...you can target shoot and hunt antilope all the way up to elk and moose with it. :m2c: It will be great hunting with a muzzleloader that you made next year!!! :thumbsup:
Please don't give up on deer hunting, because it can be such a rewarding experience...and the more you do it the better you will get!
I once lost a deer using a 30-30 Winchester...it was about a 20 yard shot broadside. I was in a tree shooting down at this deer. I felt so confident and steady with my shot that I thought it would just pile up right where it stood! When I shot nothing happened except for a deer running in the opposite direction! All I could think was, how did I miss. I later caught up with the deer that I had shot and noticed that I had shot it in the flank and it was not going to let me get another shot at it. I felt sad that I hurt that deer and that it had to suffer with a wound that I inflicked to it. I almost quit deer hunting that day but I am sure glad I didn't...I am having the time of my life hunting with my traditional muzzleloader!
Please don't give up on deer hunting, because it can be such a rewarding experience...and the more you do it the better you will get!
I once lost a deer using a 30-30 Winchester...it was about a 20 yard shot broadside. I was in a tree shooting down at this deer. I felt so confident and steady with my shot that I thought it would just pile up right where it stood! When I shot nothing happened except for a deer running in the opposite direction! All I could think was, how did I miss. I later caught up with the deer that I had shot and noticed that I had shot it in the flank and it was not going to let me get another shot at it. I felt sad that I hurt that deer and that it had to suffer with a wound that I inflicked to it. I almost quit deer hunting that day but I am sure glad I didn't...I am having the time of my life hunting with my traditional muzzleloader!
Randal Zartman
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2004
- Messages
- 279
- Reaction score
- 0
Stumpy, I took up golf one time. Bout scared the crap out of the guy hitting the ball when I pulled up with the 12 gauge and shot his ball out of the air. I thought it was a skeet shoot. :haha: I was upset when I yelled "PULL" and he ducked. Doesn't he know you only duck when you yell "FOUR". :crackup:
Zman
Zman
Here are some of my thoughts. I know a lot of you do this stuff already but I'll repeat it here just in case a few tips are new to some folks.
I hunt in wooded areas. Southeast with no tracking snow. As soon as I shoot an animal I glue my eyes on the spot it ran. Without taking my eyes off that spot I walk to it and flag it. I then go to where I shot the animal and look for hair or blood. A high lung shot sometimes takes time to start bleeding. The heart shots I have read about seem pretty typical, deer can cover a lot of ground when heart shot. I take a bearing from the spot the animal was shot to where it disappeared. In many cases the animal will run straight. If it turns it will turn maybe once. I haven't really had many tracking jobs where the animal was zig zagging around.
If there isn't a blood trail look for tracks, if there aren't any tracks examine the ground. If the ground is damp, as in most of the areas East of the Mississippi, then look for anything that may have been kicked over, a stick, rock, or leaf that looks damp. It ought to be dry so if it is dark something kicked it over. You may look and even see a depression where the rock or stick was before being kicked.
It may sound stupid but turn over leaves and look for blood on the undersides. The shrubs get moved as the animal races by and a lot of times the first blood is on the undersides of leaves. Broken twigs and hair are other signs. Flag any clues to establish a line of travel.
Hopefully you will start finding more and more blood. It sure helps to glass the area ahead. You may jump the animal so be prepared for another shot.
This last trick may not sound very sporting but it does work. If you have found clues and know you are on the trail but have simply become stumped, the animal may be very close by under a bush, etc. Aim your weapon safely at the ground and fire a shot. The animal, if still alive, almost always moves and you'll see or hear it. I recovered an 8 pt and a gobbler with that trick.
If the animal ran into a thicket, circling the thicket and looking for tracks is a fast way to know whether the animal is or isn't in that area. In most cases no wounded animal is going to leave a thicket for open spaces.
One last thought. We all read the national magazines and everything today is trophy hunting so shot placement is always a heart/lung shot. At a close range, say 25 yards, if the animal is still, and NOT a trophy, why not try for a head or neck shot. In bad tracking conditions it makes a lot of sense. :m2c:
I hunt in wooded areas. Southeast with no tracking snow. As soon as I shoot an animal I glue my eyes on the spot it ran. Without taking my eyes off that spot I walk to it and flag it. I then go to where I shot the animal and look for hair or blood. A high lung shot sometimes takes time to start bleeding. The heart shots I have read about seem pretty typical, deer can cover a lot of ground when heart shot. I take a bearing from the spot the animal was shot to where it disappeared. In many cases the animal will run straight. If it turns it will turn maybe once. I haven't really had many tracking jobs where the animal was zig zagging around.
If there isn't a blood trail look for tracks, if there aren't any tracks examine the ground. If the ground is damp, as in most of the areas East of the Mississippi, then look for anything that may have been kicked over, a stick, rock, or leaf that looks damp. It ought to be dry so if it is dark something kicked it over. You may look and even see a depression where the rock or stick was before being kicked.
It may sound stupid but turn over leaves and look for blood on the undersides. The shrubs get moved as the animal races by and a lot of times the first blood is on the undersides of leaves. Broken twigs and hair are other signs. Flag any clues to establish a line of travel.
Hopefully you will start finding more and more blood. It sure helps to glass the area ahead. You may jump the animal so be prepared for another shot.
This last trick may not sound very sporting but it does work. If you have found clues and know you are on the trail but have simply become stumped, the animal may be very close by under a bush, etc. Aim your weapon safely at the ground and fire a shot. The animal, if still alive, almost always moves and you'll see or hear it. I recovered an 8 pt and a gobbler with that trick.
If the animal ran into a thicket, circling the thicket and looking for tracks is a fast way to know whether the animal is or isn't in that area. In most cases no wounded animal is going to leave a thicket for open spaces.
One last thought. We all read the national magazines and everything today is trophy hunting so shot placement is always a heart/lung shot. At a close range, say 25 yards, if the animal is still, and NOT a trophy, why not try for a head or neck shot. In bad tracking conditions it makes a lot of sense. :m2c:
Because a head shot turns a beautiful and splended animal into a gooey mess. They deserve better I M H O. On top of that, the head of a deer is small and moves often, and without warning. Deer CAN jump the pop from a hangfire, in the unfortunate event one occurs. And they are most likely to occur when you've been out hunting. I REALLY advise against head shots.
Because a neck shot risks a slow, agonizing death from a esphagus hit. 50% of the side area of a deer's neck is muscle and windpipe with no major vessels. We're not shooting high sectional density bullets that will break the neck or "zing" the nervous system with a near pass on the spine with a burst of hydrostatic shock.
I've never mounted a head, and that is not at all why I put my shots into the lungs and chest. It is because that is the largest "target rich" environment in terms of bleeders and vitals.
smokeblower
40 Cal.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2003
- Messages
- 205
- Reaction score
- 0
Do not feel like the Lone Ranger, I have lost them too. I agree with earlier advice, walk a circular patteren and remember where they entered your field of sight or your kill area. Retrace their established patterns and most wounded deer will return to a favored pattern/path. If I do not find it I watch the buzzards. Here in West Tennessee, they will beat you to a deer in cold winter conditions, if the "yotes" don't beat them to it. A friend I hunt with shot a deer with a .50 CVA Bobcat that had a arrow in the lower shoulder area that had started to heal. A stick and string hunter was a tad off. Scabs and clots here there and the deer was still on the move. They are tough. We had a crippled deer, a blind in one eye deer, and a retarded deer (as best we can guess) feeding with the cattle. They are all gone now, easy for the "yotes" and city lease hunters. One is as bad a predator as the other. At least the better one kills to eat. The other :curse: :curse: kills to haul around half the day on the back of the SUV and take pictures of. Well I am off my stump.
Good day,
:sorry: :m2c:
Smokeblower
Good day,
:sorry: :m2c:
Smokeblower
Sorry about the head shot comment. I was really thinking more of hogs. A lot of hogs will just stand there staring at you. Their fat can plug up a bullet hole and leave no blood trail. A head shot at fifteen yards just drops 'em. No tracking.
On deer I just shot one using a non-lung shot. It was a spike about fifteen yards away. I took a neck shot and again, it just dropped, no tracking. All other deer I have shot run, even one that had the top half of the heart shot/burned away. I agree that any trophy will obviously be spoiled with a headshot.
Distances in Florida are very close and tracking is really tough in the jungles. I reckon that influenced my thinking. :sorry:
On deer I just shot one using a non-lung shot. It was a spike about fifteen yards away. I took a neck shot and again, it just dropped, no tracking. All other deer I have shot run, even one that had the top half of the heart shot/burned away. I agree that any trophy will obviously be spoiled with a headshot.
Distances in Florida are very close and tracking is really tough in the jungles. I reckon that influenced my thinking. :sorry:
No need to apologize. You're not wrong. It is certainly a dropper of a shot, but . . . We've got some young and impressionable readers who might run out and try a 75 yard headshot because of the success stories here. I used to work with a man who took nothing but head and upper neck shots because he claimed it left more meat (inclusing the heart and liver). He also took most of his deer under 20 yards from a pit blind.
Everybody has their own style and likes/dislikes in their hunting methods. I've taken shots that I would never recommend to others. Every hunting shot is unique and like none other before it. Cover, angles, distance, movement, light, wind, a zillion other things.
I'm just maintaining that center vitals is the smart money shot because it normally puts 'em down.
Thanks stumpy, I agree, probably best to keep the head shot business to one's self, otherwise it will be abused. In the general interest area Ohio Joe is talking about a plainsman group. I thought one interesting event would be a tracking type competition. How it would be set up would be difficult because as soon as one contestant followed a track it would tip off everyone else. I started out hunting in the snow, never even thought about tracking. I then got into spring bear hunts and then moved down to Florida. Suddenly tracking became a big issue. Truth is, sometimes you are going to lose an animal, no doubt about it and it is a bad experience. Still, a lot more could be done on tracking.
"Because a head shot turns a beautiful and splended animal into a gooey mess. They deserve better I M H O. On top of that, the head of a deer is small and moves often, and without warning. Deer CAN jump the pop from a hangfire, in the unfortunate event one occurs. And they are most likely to occur when you've been out hunting. I REALLY advise against head shots.
Because a neck shot risks a slow, agonizing death from a esphagus hit. 50% of the side area of a deer's neck is muscle and windpipe with no major vessels. We're not shooting high sectional density bullets that will break the neck or "zing" the nervous system with a near pass on the spine with a burst of hydrostatic shock.
I've never mounted a head, and that is not at all why I put my shots into the lungs and chest. It is because that is the largest "target rich" environment in terms of bleeders and vitals. "
This has to be one of the best answers to a hunting ethics question that I've ever heard! Great answer! :thumbsup:
Because a neck shot risks a slow, agonizing death from a esphagus hit. 50% of the side area of a deer's neck is muscle and windpipe with no major vessels. We're not shooting high sectional density bullets that will break the neck or "zing" the nervous system with a near pass on the spine with a burst of hydrostatic shock.
I've never mounted a head, and that is not at all why I put my shots into the lungs and chest. It is because that is the largest "target rich" environment in terms of bleeders and vitals. "
This has to be one of the best answers to a hunting ethics question that I've ever heard! Great answer! :thumbsup:
Oh boy, here we go again. I knew I was going to open up a can of worms when I brought up the head/neck shot business. I will speak one more time and then no more. Our conversation has gotten a little off track because we are talking arrows, 30-30's etc.
Stumpkiller is absolutely right about any sort of risky shot when using a round ball. Since this is traditional muzzleloading that probably should have settled the question. I should not have brought up the issue.
But let us say you are in South Georgia or Florida. You are watching a little clearing near a creek. The palmetto flats are so thick you CANNOT SEE YOUR FEET let alone snakes, etc. Off to the other side is a cypress head with knee deep water. Now if you shoot a deer or hog with a typical lung shot and off he goes for 100 yards, GOOD LUCK.
Now I was talking about CLOSE range, fiften yards or so, that's about half way from third base to home plate. You could hit a deer or hog in the head with a baseball at that range. I have had spikes and does come in about fifteen feet or closer. I have also shot deer (30-30) where the bullet burned off the top half of their heart and they still ran 40 yards. I have shot deer, aiming about 1/3 down from the neck (again 30-30) and they just drop. The damage isn't really that bad and the ribs were protected- okay, I think the ribs are the best tasting part of the critter and I don't want any blood stained meat. Again, with a PRB I wouldn't do this, but the conversation had gone to other areas.
So what's the point? If we hunters take a sporting lung shot and lose the animal that's okay because everyone loses one once in a while, BUT if we take a neck/head shot and then lose an animal the world has come to an end. We started out this conversation with a twentyfive yard shot. With a smoothbore a lung shot was probably the only alternative but if a neck or head shot had been taken and the same deer was lost then everyone would be complaining that the problem was taking the wrong kind of shot. Think about it, the animal was still lost. Makes no sense to me. As far as a trophy, etc, a head shot is out of the question, no argument. If you shoot a black bear in the head I believe it is automatically disqualified from being entered in any record books(I may be wrong). What I was trying to point out is suppose you are in an environment where tracking is all but impossible. All of us, myself included, are so used to the lung shot that we automatically take that shot. Every time I have shot an animal in the head or neck I admit I automatically started aiming for the lungs and because I wasn't rushed I realized that given the tracking conditions, the close range of the animal, and the perfect shooting conditions, that in that particular situation a head/neck shot was a viable alternative. In such a situation, on the average, it probably guarantees a recovered animal versus just feeding the buzzards and yotes.
This obviously is a sensitive issue. I consider myself a wilderness only hunter. Some folks hunt the beanfields or use hounds. The issue of a head shot destroying a beautiful, wild creature is valid and I must admit I am mostly a meat hunter, I only have two wall mounts. I will have to think over that aspect. I guess each of us must settle on what ever ethics we feel are proper. :relax:
Stumpkiller is absolutely right about any sort of risky shot when using a round ball. Since this is traditional muzzleloading that probably should have settled the question. I should not have brought up the issue.
But let us say you are in South Georgia or Florida. You are watching a little clearing near a creek. The palmetto flats are so thick you CANNOT SEE YOUR FEET let alone snakes, etc. Off to the other side is a cypress head with knee deep water. Now if you shoot a deer or hog with a typical lung shot and off he goes for 100 yards, GOOD LUCK.
Now I was talking about CLOSE range, fiften yards or so, that's about half way from third base to home plate. You could hit a deer or hog in the head with a baseball at that range. I have had spikes and does come in about fifteen feet or closer. I have also shot deer (30-30) where the bullet burned off the top half of their heart and they still ran 40 yards. I have shot deer, aiming about 1/3 down from the neck (again 30-30) and they just drop. The damage isn't really that bad and the ribs were protected- okay, I think the ribs are the best tasting part of the critter and I don't want any blood stained meat. Again, with a PRB I wouldn't do this, but the conversation had gone to other areas.
So what's the point? If we hunters take a sporting lung shot and lose the animal that's okay because everyone loses one once in a while, BUT if we take a neck/head shot and then lose an animal the world has come to an end. We started out this conversation with a twentyfive yard shot. With a smoothbore a lung shot was probably the only alternative but if a neck or head shot had been taken and the same deer was lost then everyone would be complaining that the problem was taking the wrong kind of shot. Think about it, the animal was still lost. Makes no sense to me. As far as a trophy, etc, a head shot is out of the question, no argument. If you shoot a black bear in the head I believe it is automatically disqualified from being entered in any record books(I may be wrong). What I was trying to point out is suppose you are in an environment where tracking is all but impossible. All of us, myself included, are so used to the lung shot that we automatically take that shot. Every time I have shot an animal in the head or neck I admit I automatically started aiming for the lungs and because I wasn't rushed I realized that given the tracking conditions, the close range of the animal, and the perfect shooting conditions, that in that particular situation a head/neck shot was a viable alternative. In such a situation, on the average, it probably guarantees a recovered animal versus just feeding the buzzards and yotes.
This obviously is a sensitive issue. I consider myself a wilderness only hunter. Some folks hunt the beanfields or use hounds. The issue of a head shot destroying a beautiful, wild creature is valid and I must admit I am mostly a meat hunter, I only have two wall mounts. I will have to think over that aspect. I guess each of us must settle on what ever ethics we feel are proper. :relax:
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2004
- Messages
- 1,495
- Reaction score
- 10
Boy, sure got some great responces to your question. First of all you are to be commended for your concern, second there is nothing wrong with your cal, load or distance of your shot. My favorite cal. for deer size and smaler under 60-75 yards is a .45 , have killed deer with .40, .45, .50 and .58. Nuff said. Here is some tracking advise you might find helpful. I've done this sereral times and it worked for me. Wait till dark, start at the last place you found blood , or saw the deer, use a coleman lantern not a flashlight, as you slowly move in the direction of the deer you will be amazed how you can see the deer track as a wounded deer will walk much heavier than normal and this will cast a very visible shadow, also the smallest drop of blood seems to jump out. :m2c:
