Do you REALLY hunt??

[Little Wattsy]

Questioning this post even as I start to write it...
I am developing a real pet-peeve with the far to frequent, in my opinion, statements I see about caliber being irelevent compared to shot placement.
I thought about pasting a bunch of quotes from near by but didnt really want to call people out publically; but the statements like "it'll (the gun) do its part if you do yours", "Its just shot placemant", "A well placed .32 is better then a poorly placed .62", etc... And I wonder do the guys that say goofy things like this ever actually hunt?
See the one part of the equasion they grossly FAIL to take into consideration is what about the animal NOT "doing ITS part"?!?!?
Yep you can kill a 200 lb hog with a .45 "if you do your part" well what if the hog dosnt decide to just stand there broad side striking a pose for that gun-range statement and do it part.. What if it moves?
This may not make sence as I ramble on but so meny of those statements sound like they come from guys used to shooting from a bench that think a clean, ethical harvest is as easy as punching paper "if you do your part". In the real woods its not. Quarry, terain, and weather (these three at LEAST) dont always coopoerate and "do thier part"
I have killed plenty of domestic pigs with a .22 and a good "pig-sticker" but those pigs were in a pen making it easy for me "to do my part". Beyond the pen and the gun range we are always trying to comensate for the survival instincts of the quary; good hunting skills help as too does one's choice in caliber/gun.
Oh well Im outta steam so let the debate begin...

 

[roundball]

Oh well Im outta steam so let the debate begin...

Well put...and if there's a debate, it won't come from people who have amassed years of actual hands-on experience taking a lot of game showing the differences of using various calibers & powder charges, at various distances & shot angles.
:thumbsup:

 

[Spikebuck]

I am a hunter, first and foremost. If it weren't for hunting, I would probably not be a "shooter" at all.

All I know after four decades of hunting is that no matter how hard you always try to do "your part," as a human being, you sometimes fail in that endeavor. That's why I like "more" gun, or "more" bow than I might need if every single shot could be guaranteed perfect "if I did my part."

So not only do animals not always cooperate at the last second when you're squeezing off the shot, but you may not cooperate...despite all the practice and great intentions. That's when a little more weapon might prove the difference between recovered game or not. It certainly won't hurt. Statements like "a well-placed 40 RB is better than a poorly-placed 62 RB" are certainly accurate..but not the whole truth. I'd say an accurately placed 62 RB is ALWAYS at least as good as an accurately placed 40, and many times much better. And certainly if a poor shot is made, I'll take the bigger hole and deeper penetration every time.

That said, if you can't handle a 65# bow, or can't handle the recoil of a 90+ grain charge from a bigger bore, by all means, don't take them hunting. In my statements, I'm assuming that if you take a big bore, you can handle and shoot it accurately. I personally think one should use the heaviest bow or largest (reasonable for the species) bore/charge/projectile one can consistently accurately handle.

 

This should be moved to the "Let's start a fight" forum.

"I wonder do the guys that say goofy things like this ever actually hunt?"

Telling members in general that they're all messed up and then”¦..

"if there's a debate, it won't come from people who have amassed years of actual hands-on experience "

So, if someone debates your OPINION, they don't have your years of experience and have no room to talk.

In other words, you guys have made your expert statements and anyone who doesn't agree is the person you're talking about. :shake:

 

[luieb45]

THANK YOU!!! People like this is why I quit spending as much time around this forum. Way too many people giving advice that hunt like 1 weekend a year. Instead I spend my time in the woods and fields, much better to learn first-hand. To be honest I wounded and never found a small doe this year's late season that I shot with my muzzleloader. I hit it in the shoulder and most people would say the .50 ball would do the job but it didn't and the deer could even run fine on all four legs. I keep track of how many days I hunt every year in a notebook and how many animals I see. This year I logged in 170 days of hunting. Mostly deer, ducks, geese, and coyote. I hate to be a hunting prude but when people talk all "big and bad" about their hunting skills and I know for a fact they don't bowhunt, they don't hunt anything but deer. So they hunt approximately 7 days a year. That's not much time to learn much about deer hunting and especially during gun season because they act really stupid from all the hunting pressure.

 

[BrownBear]

Oh well Im outta steam so let the debate begin...

No debate from this quarter.

It's just common sense. And a whole lot of experience.

 

[Supercracker]

Q
Yep you can kill a 200 lb hog with a .45 "if you do your part" well what if the hog dosnt decide to just stand there broad side striking a pose for that gun-range statement and do it part.. What if it moves?

Well, one thing you do is don't take shots at moving/running animals. To me, that's not an ethical thing to do. Naturally the pig isn't going to stop and pose for you, usually, but there are different levels of "moving". Walking casually down a trail in front of you or rooting around unaware of your presence are one thing and not that far removed from a stationary shot if you're calm and practiced. Running by full blast because the wind swirled and they winded you or are getting chased by a coyote are shots that virtually no one should ever take.

Another thing, for me anyway, is practice enough to know how close you have to be to hit where you intend to and then restrict your shots to that range. If you find yourself not within that range then either forget about it or get closer.

HUGE numbers of wild hogs (and everything else) are killed with .22s and trad bows every year. As long as people are able to get close enough to get the job done with that gear then anyone with an accurate .50 has no excuse. Or .45 for that matter. If you wanted to limit yourself to close head shots then a .36 would probably get the job done. A hole in the boiler room is a hole in the boiler room. Sure a bigger one is better but it won't be any more dead. A hole in the guts is a lost pig whether it was made by a .36 or a 12Bore double rifle (naturally the ability to follow a blood trail is a component of "your part" too). A square shot behind the ear is instant drop in the tracks whether it was a .62, .50, .36 or a .22 rimfire. But those shots all entail "doing your part". Also, take into account, "your part" starts a long time before you ever get into the woods.

And for the record, yes, I actually hunt. Not as much as I used to but that's a work thing. I've been hunting pigs a long time and have killed more than a few of them, the vast majority with a longbow, on the ground ( I hate heights), at under 25yds. "your part" includes knowing your gear, developing the ability to hit where you mean to, being able to find the animals without spooking them, developing the woodcraft to get to whatever your personal effective range is and then not taking low probability shots. Of course that range is less for someone taking ear shots with a .22, than it is for someone with a .50 rifle, than it is for someone shooting a 45-70 lever gun than it is for someone shooting a scoped 300WM.

A large caliber is no replacement for shot placement. I can't understand how we seem to get on this road annually. Pigs are critters, if you deflate both lungs, ventilate the heart or smack its' brain it will die. It doesn't take a nitro express category round to accomplish this. This includes hitting the shield. But knowing where it is, what rounds will penetrate it effectively and then hitting where you have to is "your part". Of course caliber isn't irrelevant, but, IMO, it's a distant second to shot placement and responsible hunting practices. It would be foolish to take a shoulder shot with a .22 or a .36PRB. But again, knowing that is "your part".

It is not a "gun range statement" to place a supreme emphasis on shot placement. It's a minimum personal ethical standards statement.


I'm sure this arrow had way less KE than even a .32 RB, was placement or caliber more important here. How far do you think this pig went? (not my pig)

When I dressed out this guy he had Buckshot under the skin on his forehead, the half round notch in his jaw is a partially healed bullet hole and he had a mushroomed large caliber pistol round (I think) in a cyst in his hip. A larger caliber didn't make up for any one of those shots where someone didn't do their part and took a shot they shouldn't have, but a little piece of wood through the lungs brought him down just fine.

this was a moderately loaded .50. Guess how far she went. (admittedly not 200lbs but you get the idea)

This guy was well in excess of 200lbs but it certainly didn't take a huge round from a powerful gun to drop him. It took getting to 15 or so yards and then taking the same bowshot I had taken 2 or 3 dozen times a day, 4 or 5 days a week, for God knows how long.

If anything, putting the emphasis on using larger calibers will encourage people to take shots they shouldn't but they'll think it's ok because they have XX caliber.

 

[Little Wattsy]

So I dont know about FL but here in Oregon .22's arnt legal to hunt ANY big game with; "HUGE numbers of wild hogs (and everything else) are killed with .22s" But I am assuiming that in FL they must be per the statement. Do YOU regularly hunt game with a .22?

Maybe its a reverance thing but I cant imagine reducing the hunt to a slaughter. I can and have, as mentioned before, slaughtered pigs and cows with a .22, I have witnesed the slaughter of cattle with a sledge hammer, I have poisened vermin - just "doing my part", I even swerve the car to hit opposums and cyotes. All very lethal and where your "doing your part" it will kill stuff deader the heck but would I really poison an elk? Intentionally hit a deer with a car? Chase a bear with a .22? Corral elk and brain them with a sledgehammer? NO!
Could it be done? Sure "If you do your part". Has it been done? More so then not (probably not poising elk) but what kind of man would do any of it?
I revere the game I persue; its not just slaughtering meat or eliminating vermine.
At the end of the day if you are hunting legally, I support your right to do so but still object to the comments/opinions that suggest that killing an elk with a .22 is ok you just gotta "do your part".

 

[larry wv]

You are 100% on the money Wattsy. :thumbsup: Glad you made this post. Larry

 

[Vaino]

I would question this "topic" also...whether one "hunts" is very subjective and relative. I for one would not question a person permanently relegated to a "wheel chair" and pushed out to a deer feeding spot and all this person has to do is pull the trigger. To this person...he's hunting.

Whether one is "hunting" is in the mind of the individual and should be left at that....my elk hunting could be considered an obsession by some....it's an all out affair both physically and mentally. Others aren't so inclined, but also consider themselves to be hunters and I don't disagree w/ them.

Outside of anecdotal events offered in support of one's "beliefs", this topic will engender posts of personal opinions ... that hopefully will be taken as "facts" by the readers....Fred

 

[Robby]

Do you REALLY hunt??
Yes
Robby

 

[Supercracker]

in what universe is stalking close enough to make an ear shot on a wild pig with a .22 even vaguely similar to poisoning elk or slaughtering penned animals? Or even unsporting for that matter. If anything using a big bore gun so that you don't have to get close is the less sporting of the two options.

part of "doing your part" is knowing the limitations of your gear and behaving accordingly. chasing bear with a .22 would not be behaving accordingly, unless you're either suicidal or are planning on stalking to within 3' to stick it in his ear.....in which case you're suicidal.

Your original post comes across as though caliber can be a replacement for getting close enough to make a good shot. I maintain that it's not, and IMO a bad idea to act as though it is.

I'm surprised.....yet again, that this (caliber vs placement) is even an argument. Since you're comparing what I'm talking about to a slaughter of penned animals, hitting things with a car and poisoning deer I'm not sure exactly what kind of event you're picturing us doing down here but I assure you that whatever you're thinking ain't it!.

Let me rephrase it.

I think that getting close enough and getting yourself in a situation where you have the best shot possible that is also appropriate for your weapon is far more important than using the largest caliber possible and in that vein a .50 PRB is way more than adequate for all but the nastiest swamp rhino of pigs. I also think that concentrating on the biggest round possible can lead people to make shots that they shouldn't have under the mistaken impression that because of their large bore size placement is less critical.

 

[Supercracker]

in FL and GA hogs are, for some unknown reason, considered small game. They're really considered a nuisance animal, but as far as public land goes they're legally SG. You can use any weapon legal for SG to take them. Which includes .22s.

I don't use a .22 because I just don't care for them or modern weapons in general. I hunt with just my MLs and the occasional antique hammergun for birds. Before that it was just a longbow until I messed up my shoulders.

The guys that do use .22s for pigs do it like we do and the bowhunters do. Be quiet and slow, find the pigs and then get close enough to put the round where it works. Which for a .22 is behind the ear. that's a far far cry from not having any reverence or regard for the animal and reducing the hunt to a slaughter. It's certainly in no way comparable to road kill or poisoning.

Really, I think the most commonly used pig gun around here is an AR15, followed closely by Inlines or slug guns. The AR guys have the same arguments over whether or not a .223 is adequate for pigs that we're having. But they still stack them up regularly.

The truth is that the overwhelming majority of pigs you see in the woods are not going to be that big unless you're using dogs. But that's a whole other argument. 95% of the ones you find will be under 60 or so pounds. Making most any round placed properly adequate. The really big ones got really big because they're crazy smart and you're just not going to find them.

 

[blackpowderscout]

Yep, folks use .22's here the time. You never know when your out getting squirells and a hog might might present itself. If you do your part, it'll go down...LOL!!

Same with .410's.....

I still maintain that shot placement is more important than caliber. Shoot a hog in the head with a .45 vs in the gut with a .62....see which one turns out better for you.

To assert that folks who advocate that the shooter be more concerned with being sure of his shot over the size of the ball are in some way wrong is well...wrong.

If I can't get the shot I want, I don't shoot. Period. Seems like my old man drilled that into my head pretty well as a kid....

 

[Supercracker]

Y

I still maintain that shot placement is more important than caliber. Shoot a hog in the head with a .45 vs in the gut with a .62....see which one turns out better for you.

I know. I'd say when you're close enough that if you screw up the shot the hog can either

A: run away
or
B: be inside your pants with you before you even have time to know what's going on. :shocked2:

that's pretty respectful of the animal.

 

[blackpowderscout]

Since we are confirming that we do indeed hunt, Shane, here's some more I had handy...

 

[traditional man]

The. 223 FMJ does a great job on deer. No need to spend money on them fancy huntin' bullets or ammo.

 

[silly goose]

I've hunted for 25 years, here in NYS. Don't care to hunt anywhere else. Had several dry years breaking into the game, and this is the first year I've gone dry since, wasn't even supposed to be in the woods so I still consider it a positive. That being said, It seems that some of you have a built in excuse for losing game. Yep, I've lost a deer, know it was my fault, have since corrected the situation.

You are the only one in control of a shoot/no shoot situation, and you have to live with it. Some let greed, inexperience or a variety of different reasons cloud their judgement. If its dicey, I don't take the shot, their will always be a next time. I know folks will kill more deer than I will, but I am more than happy with my one/two a year to fill the freezer. Sorry I don't agree with what appears to be the majority, but to me it comes down to discipline.

I'm ready for my beating now. :grin:

And for the record, I love the .50 cal, which if I am to believe what I have been reading lately, will only put the eye out a whitetail deer with a properly placed shot. :grin:

 

[Shine]

Yeah this dog hunts. And I dont get all touchy feely with it either. I hunt,I kill,I eat. And im good at it.
Nuff said.

 

[traditional man]

Really, I think the most commonly used pig gun around here is an AR15, followed closely by Inlines or slug guns. The AR guys have the same arguments over whether or not a .223 is adequate for pigs that we're having. But they still stack them up regularly.

Interesting you bring ip the. 223. I have more buddies in SW AK that hunt with the. 22 mag, .22 hornet and .223. They hunt seals, caribou, moose, bears, bullhead whales, etc. and have feed the families for many many years. Caribou die real easy when they are in the swimming in the river and with a .22lr. Lights out...