Does a horn need nails?

[swathdiver]

I can see from the onset, that you are not a Traditional BP history enthusiast and just trying to start an argument, so I'll answer you second question. Yes, I have and do make both screw tip powder horns and have made threaded horn containers.

You're wrong on both points sir. I reckon we're at different degrees of the former. I like the way my bison horn looks without nails but when my children and I make our own horns, we use the traditional methods.

 

[Artificer]

[/quote]
Thanks for posting that. I have never gave it a thought, but never saw an old horn with brass pins. I wonder why? Wooden pins, iron pin, never brass, they pined knifes with brass :idunno: [/quote]

Iron wire for pins was A WHOLE LOT CHEAPER and extremely more common than brass wire/pins were, during at least the Pre AWI period.


Gus

 

[tenngun]

True, sometimes in our quest to find logical answers we ignore simple economics.

 

[Artificer]

True, sometimes in our quest to find logical answers we ignore simple economics.

Exactly. The fact that so many original horns have wood/thorn pegs, also speaks to the thriftiness of many of our ancestors. Why spend money on Iron Wire when you don't need to?

Gus

 

[Pete G]

True, sometimes in our quest to find logical answers we ignore simple economics.

Not only economics but also common availability. We are used to machine made wire, but it was not around in the 18th century.

 

[CrackStock]

True, sometimes in our quest to find logical answers we ignore simple economics.

Not only economics but also common availability. We are used to machine made wire, but it was not around in the 18th century.

Are you saying that rolled sheeting and wire did not exist?

 

[Kansas Jake]

It is amazing how long a locust tree thorn will stay nasty and sharp on a dead branch in the wild. They never seem to rot away.

 

[Artificer]

It is amazing how long a locust tree thorn will stay nasty and sharp on a dead branch in the wild. They never seem to rot away.

Locust fence posts last 50 or more years in the ground, so it does not seem unusual the thorns would last a long time.

Gus

 

[tenngun]

True, sometimes in our quest to find logical answers we ignore simple economics.

Not only economics but also common availability. We are used to machine made wire, but it was not around in the 18th century.

Are you saying that rolled sheeting and wire did not exist?

Wasn't 18th century wire flat?

 

[rushlake1]

I want the plug to come off during a cook off.
use soft wood pegs...
The steel pin police can take another call.
YMMV......Received several day horns as gifts..first thing I did was remove the steel pegs.
Also drilled a relief hole in my brass(Hand grenade) pan charger..I like all my digits.Carry on....

 

[Claude Mathis]

We are used to machine made wire, but it was not around in the 18th century.

The Egyptians made wire. Also...

Wire was drawn in England from the medieval period. The wire was used to make wool cards and pins, manufactured goods whose import was prohibited by Edward IV in 1463. The first wire mill in Great Britain was established at Tintern in about 1568 by the founders of the Company of Mineral and Battery Works, who had a monopoly on this. Apart from their second wire mill at nearby Whitebrook, there were no other wire mills before the second half of the 17th century. Despite the existence of mills, the drawing of wire down to fine sizes continued to be done manually.

 

[tenngun]

Was it round wire?

 

[omarick1948]

Was it round wire?

I'm sure it was round wire due to all the other use's of round wire from applications on many items from the 17th Century, i.e., tools and tool repair, cooking utensils, cutlery, furniture, mesh screening and silver and gold wares/jewelry items, just to name a few.

 

[omarick1948]

I want the plug to come off during a cook off.
use soft wood pegs...
The steel pin police can take another call.
YMMV......Received several day horns as gifts..first thing I did was remove the steel pegs.
Also drilled a relief hole in my brass(Hand grenade) pan charger..I like all my digits.Carry on....

Why would you use your powder horn in a cook off? ... What is the steel pin police? ... Is that relief hole in your brass flask about the same as a touch hole on a cannon or priming/vent hole in a flintlock? ... What does removing the steel pins accomplish?

 

[rushlake1]

Cook off -accidental discharge
Soft wood pegs - less pressure during accidental discharge

Releaf plug on primer..less pressure on accidental discharge

Does this help?

Build them tight enough and parts of your body will be rearranged....not funny!

Rick use steel..just not on mine....thank you!

 

[omarick1948]

Thanks for your explanation. ... I don't use steel nails in any of my horns anymore. You know, those of us who use loose black powder are using an explosive that is very dangerous in the first place and warrants strict handling and safety practices. In over forty years of B/P shooting and handling, I know of only a very few verifiable incidents of powder horns exploding of flaring dangerously resulting in any kind of injury. I realize that there are unreported incidents, that have probably happened, but I can only mention a very few that I know or heard from in media reporting.

Hundreds, if not thousands of powder horn in history were made using iron base plug pins. Especially, early Colonial factory made horns, like screw-tip and applied tip spout powder horns. Metal pins were used in not only the base plug, but securing the applied spout tips. ___ Any additional opening for vents are not going to stop a horn/copper flask's explosive high pressure danger if accidental ignition happens. I'm a pure pro-believer in soft wood powder horn stoppers for sealing the spout opening.

Each of us have our own thinking and reason's for what we do, but fretting over steel pins and vent relief holes are something that does really worry me, as much, as someone not watching their muzzle at a shoot and shooting me or someone else. :shocked2:

Now that's something to worry about!

Rick

 

[CrackStock]

Cook off -accidental discharge
Soft wood pegs - less pressure during accidental discharge

Releaf plug on primer..less pressure on accidental discharge

Does this help?

Build them tight enough and parts of your body will be rearranged....not funny!

Rick use steel..just not on mine....thank you!

Relief?

We simply keep sparks out of our powder because we know that black powder and sparks should not mix until shooting a shot. Even then, we put our stoppers back in the horns without fail. We are smart enough to know that we want neither a firebomb nor grenade under our armpits. Prevention of sparks reaching the powder is the best practice.

As to why we have preferences in the construction of powderhorns, the interest involves reproducing correct horns to accompany our correct guns and equipment. These vary greatly based upon the time and location of the original manufacturer. The butt retention methods vary from 3 simple iron nails (a bit of religious imagery) on an Adams County horn to 5 iron nails common to a Lehigh County horn. Brass tacks, wooden pegs or even locust thorns were used for other types of horns in other areas. The fact is that with a bit of study, you can learn a whole lot about the correct architecture and be correct in your presentation. Some people travel long distances and spend a lot of money to view and study original horns so as to get such details correctly documented and presented. But I guess such attention to detail makes us "steel pin police"...

If you are worried about sparks, the iron pins which I use are quite soft and I have not been able to strike a spark with that little wire.

As to your assertion that a few nails will make a bit of difference if a spark sets off the powder in a horn - you are misguided. The result will be catastrophic regardless of a few nails - either way. Most of the nails go into a rather thin bit of the plug rim and are not all that secure. Insignificant in the event of the powder being lit.

But fool yourself if it pleases you.

If you are so worried, why not put cosmetic nails to preserve the look. If shallow, they will not make the butt plug hold too tightly - even for your tastes.

But then the question comes - how did your horner actually secure the butt? Wax, epoxy, glue, toothpicks...? You likely have the grenade that you so greatly fear in spite of removing the nails.
Have you tested the bursting strength of your particular horn to see if your butt plug is fitted too tightly. Likely the weakest point is the wall of the horn itself.

Apparently, you prefer a firebomb rather than an explosive device?

How about this - keep your stopper in place...

 

[rushlake1]

As hunter-plinker my day horns are flap covered in shooting bag.
Never cared for carrying an exterior horn...

Just wanted to bring up a point for those new to building horns...Carry On....

 

[Obi-Wan Cannoli]

It is my understanding that the horn does not care how it is constructed in the event a spark is introduced to it.

 

[CrackStock]

As hunter-plinker my day horns are flap covered in shooting bag.
Never cared for carrying an exterior horn...

Just wanted to bring up a point for those new to building horns...Carry On....

I do understand the desire to keep powder away from sparks and there are advantages to carrying a horn in the shooting bag. We just differ on the horn construction methods. As one who values the original equipment, I stay with their designs and methods.

When deer or turkey hunting, I also use a small powderhorn inside my bag. It is convenient and compact for a situation where I will likely only fire a single shot. When shooting a lot or doing reenactments, I generally carry my powderhorn on my left side and my bag on my right. As a right handed shooter, this seems to flow best with my loading process. The idea of having the horn away from the lock also seems to have a higher degree of safety. Not the most common method then or now, but it has some benefits.

I have at times covered my horn with my outer garment, mostly to keep the horn from getting damp or scratched, but also it seems to be farther from any sparks there as well. It is also covered from any sparks from the shooter to the left if on a line. At a range, the main powder container stays at the loading bench and not at the shooting line - only a small priming container comes to the firing line.

So we are not so far apart in this concern and it is good to have people consider these views.

Thanks for the conversation even though we do not totally agree. In fact, the airing of opposing views gives it all the greater value.

CS