Does Bore Size Matter?

[roundball]

To be sure we're clear...I take no issue with whatever anybody wants to use...please enjoy your chosen approach for making close shots at skeet or squirrels.

In this case I happen to follow the turkey load advice on the referenced web site by choice and will continue to do so...and by the way, it has nothing to do with my ability to "read"...but has everything to do with my ability to "think outside the box".

For example, it's also been said that a "well established" practice of measuring powder was "to cover a ball in the palm of one's hand"...another was to "blow down a barrel after a shot", etc...but I don't do those things either. :grin:

The gentleman's recommended turkey load works extremely well and is an outstanding tight patterning long range turkey load in my .62cal GM Flint smoothbore, so the comment about overloading something seems not to apply in this case.

:thumbsup:

 

[MikeC]

OK...Now I'm totally confused :surrender:

I would like to keep the bore size as small as possible so when shooting a ball it feels more like a rifle.

In my original post i picked 90 grains, just to throw a number out there. Now in a .54 90 grains is not allot of powder, why then would equal amounts of 90 grain by volume be considered excessive in a bore smaller than 20. Is it because of the shot weight?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've often heard it said that "with muzzleloaders one is not limited to what fits in the shell". But the fact is that shotgun loads for the various gauges were standardized long before breechloaders were the rule. As Mike Roberts said, the Brits had it all pretty well pegged. When the early breechloaders appeared they didn't just make a shell of arbitrary size and load whatever fit, they made the shell to hold the load that was already standard for that gauge of muzzleloader. It is true that the Brits were into "shooting flying", almost exclusively, and I see that where wing shooting is concerned you agree with the standard loads.
The blackpowder shotgun reached the peak of development with the percussion side by side. You will find very few percussion shotguns smaller than 16 gauge and the great majority are 10 and 12 gauge. The 20 gauge is very rare in percussion guns and in early breechloaders because tens and twelves were just much more useful guns with black powder and cylinder bores.
There is not much to be gained by overloading a cylinder bore gun because the pattern spreads so rapidly that a 25% increase in the shot load will only extend the effective range by a couple of yards. That also was known long ago. And pellet deformation in a long shot column is due not only to pellets scrubbing the barrel walls but also the inertia of the pellets in a long load causes the pellets at the rear to be squashed between the "irresistible force" of the powder gas pushing from the read and the "immovable object" of the stationary pellets in front. The force of acceleration and the resistance of inertia is enough to shorten and slug up a solid lead bullet so one could hardly expect birdshot pellets to remain round.
The standard loads with black powder, muzzle or breech loading were 7/8 ounce in 20 gauge, one ounce in 16 and 1 1/8 ounce in 12 gauge, all for good reason. I agree that 1 5/8 ounce in a 20 is approaching a proof load. You can load a muzzle loader heavier than standard, but is there any point?

 

roundball, you seem to think everything I write is directed at you. But all you folks feel free to experiment--each gun is different. Shooting long range at turkeys with a period flintlock fowler probably does require non-standard approach. The period fowler was not made to do that (long range birdshot shooting) and that is why chokes were later invented--and then more recently, shot cups, etc. The old timers typically went to shot that was heavier than most modern game laws allow for turkeys. They also took closer shots. Times were different. The balanced loads the British developed were for wingshooting where shot string and pattern are both important, and were typically for 40 yds and under. I have done extensive hunting for upland game of all types, quail, dove, ruffed grouse, pheasant, prairie chickens, sage grouse, chukar, turkey, etc. I don't hold a candle to roundball in deer shooting, but I know my wingshooting. Turkeys are more like deer, in that you typically (not always) shoot them on the ground--and they are big tough birds. I have seen two turkeys taken on the wing--at relatively close range. I shot one with my 12 gauge and 1 1/4 oz #4 shot. The other, a huge bird, was taken by a buddy with a 16 gauge and 1 oz #8 shot! Both these shots were within 30 yds. Mine required a finishing shot--his was dead on arrival, with those little shot! He of course head shot it. IC choke barrel on his little Fox double. Neither of us use 3" mag loads. My father did all of his bird hunting with #8 AA target loads. Killed pheasants deader than a post. [I use #6s on pheasant, personally] The number of hits in a vital area is what takes birds--turkeys need a dense pattern in the head and neck (size matters little) or a heavy (large size)shot load in the body. If your gun patterns well with heavy powder and shot, go for it. But pattern is more important than powder charge. My period guns are cylinder bore. My modern guns are choked. They require different approaches in loads and in hunting strategy. I don't take shots out of the effective range of my guns.

 

[Slash]

We use Longhammack smoothbore barrels. He still drills all of his barrels. He offers smoothbore barrels in 12 guage, too. Just holler if we can help.
Slash

 

[faw3]

Longhammack makes really great barrels and will make them anyway you want, even rifled. :rotf: Riley is really a great guy to work with. Fred :hatsoff: (not to get of subject but I thought the 32,36 40 rifle was "the turkey" gun a head shot or neck if your really good takes the chance out of it, just my 2 cents and out of place here.) :redface:

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

Well, I'm the sort that finds incongruity hilarious. I laugh alot, so my apologies to the more sober amongst us. I took your unfamilarity with smoothbores as my premise, and advocated a 12 gauge over a 20 for versatility. I think Mike Brooks is a gun building god, and I'm sure Roundball has confidence in his load recommendations. I suppose I should explain to Roundball that I am a trap and pheasant shooter. Neither pursuit is limited to 21 yards. I harvest many birds at 40 yards and beyond.

I am not a gun builder just a very avid shotgunner. I shoot about 100 pheasants per year with a 12 gauge full jug choked flint fowler, and probably at least as many clays. I shoot a few thousand clays per year with smokeless arms.

I'm not a turkey hunter. I've never shot a bird on the ground(...unless it was a crow that had already been wing shot and was simply being dispatched with a second shot) but suffice to say that a gun the patterns well enough to take a bird on the wing at 40 yards, should settle the hash of a strutting gobbler at 25 to 40 yards.

Since you don't already have a smoothbore, and can build what you like, I think a 12 gauge performs better than a 20 or smaller gauge. As has already been pointed out, you can load whatever you want in a shotgun, yet as Mike Roberts and Coyote Joe have so well explained, optimum results will be obtained with standard accepted loads for appropriate gauges.

I have seen families with 4 kids squeezing into a Japanese sedan. It works. However, if that same family were to show up at a dealership to purchase a new car, I think it would be inconsiderate to "sell" them another foreign sedan if a van were available in their price range.

My original point was that there is no benefit to building a 20 gauge when you can build a 12. The 12 will handles round balls as well as any smoothbore, and will throw more shot, more efficiently than a 20.

I really can't account for the popularity of 20 gauge guns except for the availability of barrels. Accepting all answers to your question to be honest and well intentioned, it seems that a 20 gauge can be loaded to shoot almost as well as a 12, but not better than a 12. If that's the case why not just build a 12 gauge? I can certainly understand someone whose invested in a 20 gauge trying to maximize his investment by tweeking loads to bring it up to par, but since you don't have money invested in another gun, why not just build a gun that will do it all?

I'm sorry if the answers have caused confusion, but a divergence of opinion is always helpful to someone attempting to make a buying decision. Having indicated that a 12 gauge is the gun that will do it all, I must mention that all fowlers are a compromise. For big game hunting beyond 50 yards, I have a low opinion of all smoothbores, and would much prefer a rifle. For limb rats too, I would prefer head shooting them with a small caliber rifle to blasting them with a shotgun. For bird hunting however, I think a 12 gauge is a perfect choice. The 12 gauge gun I have posted for sale on this forum weighs less than 7 pounds, thus a 12 gauge needn't weigh more than a 20. I had a 20 gauge Tulle years ago that weighed a pound more than the 12 I'm selling. (The Tulle incidently was worthless for wingshooting because of the stock contouring. If you want to do any wingshooting have the gun appropriately stocked for the purpose)

 

[Mike Brooks]

It's been my experience that cartridge guns and long barreled flint fowlers are two entirely different animals.
I've done my homework with large bored jug choked turkey fowlers. More shot and powder = killing shots out to 50 yards. with smaller loads of shot you don't have enough pattern density to insure a kill.
Wing shooting on the other hand I've always done with lighter loads and a good dog that works no more that 15 to 20 yards out. I've shot many a bird with 7/8 oz # 5's in a dbl flint 18 bore
In my 12 bore I always loaded 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 depending on how far out the birds are getting up that day.
Most all the cylinder bored long barreled flint fowlers of smaller bore ( 20 bore and less) I've shot shot out of pattern really nice if you do some work at the pattern board. On the other hand , most all of the short barreled cylinder bored barrels havn't shot worth a damn for me.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Let me add a bit to some of what Iron Jim was saying...
I've never been one to support the universal gun theory of the 20 bore. If I want a gun that shoots RB good I'll shoot a 28 bore. If I want to shoot shot well I'll go for a 12 or 10 bore. The 20 really doesn't shoot RB or shot as well as I'd like. You'll get by with a 20 bore, but there are more specific bored guns that do the job better. Besides, it gives good reason to have several guns. :haha:

 

...on jug chokes, etc---my comments refer to cylinder bored MLers, I have no experience with choked MLers. All of my modern guns are choked to some degree, but none are jug choked. I bow to you jug choke experts. Personally, I think the 12 gauge is the best 'all around' gauge shotgun. As for 20s popularity in 18th cent style fowlers and trade guns, etc., it may have to do with the thinner profile or attempts to get "close" to the trade gun bores (which were really ranged more like 28 to 20, once you translate the French caliber/bore data--they used a different weight pound than the English). Many old fowlers were over 20 bore, like 12, 11 or 10. The 20 is handy for rd ball shooting with modest loads and requires less lead than the Besses, etc...but for long range shooting I pick a rifle, thank ye very much.

 

[Mike Brooks]

In the end, I say if you want a 20 get it, you'll get a great amount of enjoyment out of it with shot or RB. Same goes with the 24 bore. You're not going to see much difference in performance between the two.

 

[tg]

"1 5/8th ounces of shot in a 20 gauge is virtually a proof load. 7/8th's is fine for wing shooting. 1 ounce is a stiff load, and 1 1/4 ounces is heavy, in a 20 gauge. 1 5/8ths is close to a double load."

Just to keep things in perspective one needs to look at the individual barrel strength in the gun, a .69 minnie ball can weigh 730 grains so a 1 5/8 oz.load of shot in a .62 may not be a barrel buster.. as for the heavy shot loads, the pattern will tell the story on how they will work for your particular needs.

 

[Tinker2]

Most people are happiest using what they think
they want.

I shoot 11, 12, 16, 20, 24, and 28 ga. flintlocks and
percussion. They are all fun.

The 28 ga. is my favorite for trap shooting.
The 20 ga. is my choice for Canadian geese.
The 11 ga. is a blast with round balls.

I use what most people would think of as light or to light
of a load.

I have heard that the old market hunters that would flock
shoot put as much powder and shot in their guns as they
thought they could get away with.

Get what you think you want. Start with lighter loads and
work your way up if you think you need to.

Be Safe

Tinker2

 

[ffffg]

I read all of the posts here and interesting enough, all are correct. what Jim is talking about is the square load.. What happens is this is the best load for figureing pattern density considering all of the pellets... The huge load in the 20s is shot at low velocity, and the shooter is depending on the center pellets in the bore making it to the kill zone... the rear pellets are probably also deformed.. but the low velocity is helping keep them together.. another pluss of the huge 20 loads is that sometimes the shooter goes to larger pellets becouse of the lower velocity. larger shot deforms less comparitivly and holds velocity a little better.. ... Why the 16 is totally overlooked today with bp shooters is truely amazing.. i shoot a 1 1/8-1 1/4 oz load of shot, and 400 grain round ball in my 16.. like goldilocks said, not too big, not too small, but jusssst right.. :grin: .. My Jims chambers 16 in the mark silver is a little heavy at 9 pounds becouse of the figured walnut, but i like heavy swamped barreled shotguns, they simply shoot better.. I could probably trim alot off it if i wanted... im guessing an octagon to round 16 should be able to do in 7 1/2 pounds or there about... dave..