Don't Carve That Stock!

[Comfortably_Numb]

Mike Gahagan has very reasonable prices as well. So did I when I was active. I had always thought these top flight makers charged a lot, but as long as you don't order a super high end gun their prices are very reasonable. I have handled and shot a 50k Brennan rifle. Quite a work of art.

 

[Cvkotvkse]

Since I have decided to choose guns whose styles, age represented, and decoration connect to specific ancestors, that has helped me avoid soome temptations, and guided me re: finishes and "window dressings..." Ulster Scots Overmountain people; French Lick pioneers,and the like were probably putting resources into something other than decorative rifle stocks (they WERE, by their Rev War and 1812 records, specifically snipers in rifle units...) So my research now is regarding HC-stock finishes, esp. for the cherry-stocked Colonial I am redoing...
Brass tack patterns for Creek and Cherokee rifles between 1805 and 1820 are a whole 'nother story, but it's interesting looking at them through traditional eyes, rather than "museum typologies..."
Maybe not totally germane to the original subject, but there can be good reasons for Pathfinder's admonition beyond lack of talent, training, and/or experience.

 

[Pete G]

I you have access to the Kindig and RCA books, you will see that not all old guns had well designed or well executed carving. Some of the old gunsmiths could produce furniture grade carving, but some were lacking. I say do some study and start simple and build your skills. You will be in good company.

 

[HSmithTX]

I am going to carve my next one, and do my level damn best job on it too. I'll pick it apart and see all of the flaws and do another, and another. I am going to emulate existing work though, as those that know have said I have not studied the work enough to even consider a scratch design. If some people don't like it I am good with that, if Mike Brooks or someone else that actually knows what they are talking about has input I will gladly accept it and learn from it. How fortunate we are, as complete nobodies, to be able to get feedback from people that have a lifetime of experience in this super narrow field amazes me.

 

[The Appalachian]

. what looks like a smooth curve from one angle can reveal a flat spot from another.

That is VERY true not only in decoration, but in basic stock shaping to begin with. I got good at automotive body work long before I got good at stock making. Nothing more useful than a strong light and shadows for seeing "shape".

 

[Rob M.]

My Harley riding buddy says Chrome don't get you home but sure looks good sitting by the road.

I personally don't care for carving on a gun, I can appreciate the skill and time it takes, but it just isn't my cup of tea.

I do like a simple line or two carved,on buttstock,and or forestock

Huh ,funny .... You and I.must be the only two in the world ! LOL ! I never cared for the look of carving on a rifle or gun . If its just a little it isn't bad but a lot ...it just looks gaudy to me . Just my thing , everyone is different. I can certainly look at it and appreciate the work , effort and talent it took but I dont like it in the least and would never want it on one of my firearms and sure have no desire to replicate such work . If a customer wants the simple incised tang and mortice carvings on one of my trade guns I'll put it on there but I dont like the look or in the case of the rear mortice carving , the feel of it . Hence ,I'm also no good at carving ... LOL , I always said , Thank goodness I fell in love with trade guns and not Golden Age Rifles because id never be able to replicate one ! LOL

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I am going to carve my next one, and do my level damn best job on it too. I'll pick it apart and see all of the flaws and do another, and another. I am going to emulate existing work though, as those that know have said I have not studied the work enough to even consider a scratch design. If some people don't like it I am good with that, if Mike Brooks or someone else that actually knows what they are talking about has input I will gladly accept it and learn from it. How fortunate we are, as complete nobodies, to be able to get feedback from people that have a lifetime of experience in this super narrow field amazes me.

Take a look at kiblers carving video. Best instruction I have seen on the subject.

 

[PathfinderNC]

Take a look at kiblers carving video. Best instruction I have seen on the subject.

Mike- when will you be teaching carving next? I think you mentioned it in another thread.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Thanks oreclan. I had done some relief and incise carving before but kind-of drifted into doing the more simple, incise line carving. This rifle below was my second rifle build, probably 1990. It is Cherry and I think the stock and parts were from various sources, though the stock was Pecatonica Early American (?) that just had the ramrod and barrel channel done.
At that time I never saw a real antique gun, just photos from books. I liked the early Germanic guns with the heavy carving, so that was what I was trying to emulate. I remember scraping the stock with blades and rifler files also, not using that much sand paper. Though somewhat crudely carved, I think the design worked and has an old-world feel (to me).
It just hangs in my shop now, and I will shoot it again some day

I think it looks good! That's what an earlier style Germanic rifle should look like ......imop!

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

I'm just a mediocre builder and did the carving on these rifles, not the best but I did it!

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

I can do wood carvings, it's just doing relief carvings on stocks that I can't seem to do correctly. At least not yet.

Wonderful!

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

Mike- when will you be teaching carving next? I think you mentioned it in another thread.

August, right after the CLA. As long as there is no major civil unrest before the election.

 

[PathfinderNC]

August, right after the CLA. As long as there is no major civil unrest before the election.

Fashionably carved flintlocks are so appealing during civil unrest.

 

[saculmot]

This is an attitude that really frustrates me. nobody gets to be good at something without practice. My carving and engraving is amateurish to be generous but I get better every time I try. it is not sophisticated or a beautiful design or well executed but at least I am making mistakes and learning. I am not great at building the rest of the gun either but if I let my limited skill stop me I would sit in front of a tv for the rest of my life never getting better at anything. I really wish someone would write a book on drawing and design for Longrifles. disregard the naysayers and give it a go.

They sell fence slats at Home Depot real cheap to practice on.

 

[oldwood]

How I improved my approach to carving was simple. Starting from nothing , I sat with a master gunbuilder , Lew Sanchez , out on the porch of the NMLRA gun makers display hall , and in a few minutes on a notebook , Mr. Sanchez taught me how to think about designing art carving. Who knew? I've always been able to use tools , and just needed to figure out how to know where to start on a carving , how to look at a carving , and break the carving down into step 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , etc.. After doing a few basic carvings and importantly to me , recreating the particular carving used on each "school" of rifle. Each stock shape lends itself to an appropriate carving , as done by the original gun maker. It's just my style to keep in "school" as I rebuild a given master's creation. After working for a while , with the help of a friend with a Don Allen gunstock duplicator , that copied many original stocks from collector original guns , carving /decorating art became easy and down right fun. Guess I'll take my skills with me when I'm gone. Have attempted to teach a guy or two how to build a rifle , but no success there......oldwood...... Luck be with ya

 

[mikesto44]

You can't learn anything if you don't try....

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

They sell fence slats at Home Depot real cheap to practice on.

What would you do with a fence slat.

 

[oldwood]

It's amazing what you can do with other folks cast off materials. Was installing a new radiology dept. at an out of date hospital in northern Pa.. Hosp. administrator and I became good friends , muzzleloader buddies. One night on my way home , I dropped off at his house , an old propane stove , and lead pot so he could cast some sinkers. He gave me an armload of 19th century 1/4" by 3 " hickory 36" long orthopedic matress bed slats. I didn't know why I took them , but after some thought , I saw a manure load of m/l patched ball quick loader ball boards , also , neighbor used some for hickory scalping knife handles...................I gotta go to Lowes and check out those fence slats. Don't have ta practice carving , but never know what some m/l project might require. LOL

 

[Pete G]

What would you do with a fence slat.

Build a fence

 

[Col. Batguano]

The thing that makes gun carving trickier than furniture is that, generally, our American Long rifle carving is done in low relief, and furniture is done in high relief. The trick with low relief (max of 1/16" but most of it is much lower than that) is to make it LOOK like high relief in executing it. Under cutting and trenching around the the features so stain and finish can get under there is one way to make it appear higher. When you do high relief stuff you don't have to do that stuff as much because the features themselves are generally larger and don't need it as much.

From the examples I've seen over the years on this forum is that a lot of guys fall down on leveling their background planes around their features. You can often see the "digs" around the features. Scrapers and very small profile sanders can be very good tools for helping to get rid of it. I did too my first few attempts. Yeah, it's boring and time consuming. As mentioned previously, strong light from many angles can often help reveal it. Patience is a must have.

Another good reference book is Shipper's book "Engraving Historical Firearms." Lots of well done carving in that book to take references from (as well as the engraving).