Don't know how they did it!

[vthompson]

Since I am retired due to a medical disability, I decided to try an experiment today.It was raining where I live today and I was looking for something to get into so I grabbed my flint & steel and went outside underneath my carport. I have read post's talking about how the mountain men didn't use charcloth to start a fire with so I was going to give it a try.
I tried dried out pine needles first. I got plenty of sparks but I couldn't get an ember started on them.Next, I tried a bird's nest that my grandson had found and nothing happened with that either. I then got some jute cord and frayed it all out to where it was the size of a softball and I couldn't get it to burn either.
I am pretty darned good at getting a fire started by using charcloth, and my steels are great at throwing out sparks. But for the life of me I could not get any of my material to catch a spark to where I could blow on it to get a fire going.
Lastly I tried some fatwood sawdust and got no results, then I got a trioxane bar and used a file to make dust out of it and still got no results.
To keep me from going crazy, I used some charcloth twice after this and got a spark and then a fire going after that. My conclusion is that I don't know how they did it without charcloth. If anyone can tell me the secret, I am all ears.

 

[RC]

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/f...31/post/748266/hl/FUNGUS/fromsearch/1/#748266

 

[ameling]

Catching that initial spark is the hard part. After that it becomes pretty ... mechanical.

In the northern areas, the Indians were already using Tinder Conch for fire starting when Europeans arrived. This fungus grows primarily on Birch trees. Official name is Innonotus Obliquus. A nickname is Bear Cr*p fungus - because it looks like a bear pooped on a tree! The outside it hard/black and knobby/spiky. The inside is orangish, sometimes with little white specks. Right off of the tree, the inside will catch a spark from a traditional flint striker - without any preparation!!!! Yeah, no pre-charring or soaking in potassium nitrate, or nothing. Just fresh off of the tree. Amazing stuff! It also is hard to put out once you do catch a spark in it.

But starting a fire with tinder conch/fungus is a bit different than with charcloth. You still need that "bird's nest" of dry tinder. But the heat is smaller and more concentrated than with charcloth. It is more like taking a small live coal out of an existing fire, and then coaxing it into flame.

There is a fungus that grows on some pine trees that works pretty similarily. Don't know the name of it.

The other primary way to catch that spark was with charred punky/rotted wood. Take some punky half-rotted elm or cottonwood or other type of wood, and then get it burning in an existing fire. When you have chunks of live coals in that punky wood, knock some off and put them into a "tinderbox" and close it up to smother out those coals. To use them, you then strike your sparks into that charred punky wood. When a spark catches in a chunk, you then fish it out, put it in your "bird's nest", and start your fire like normal. And be sure to close the lid on your tinderbox - to smother out any other sparks that also might have caught. When your supply of charred punky wood is getting low, just char up some more in your fire and put the coals in your tinderbox. Rotted elm and rotted cottonwood work well. Other rotted wood also works - like maple, or even oak.

Occasionally, you can find a chunk of rotted tree that will catch a spark without any pre-charring. It's rare, but occasionally happens. Sometimes everything just works out right. And often a tree right next to it won't work.

Charred punky/rotted wood was one of the primary methods of starting a fire in most areas, and back in the Old Country.

But other things can work. Some people have good luck with thistle down/heads. Some get cattail down/fluff to work. But most still have to pre-char whatever veggitation they use. Most any fungus will catch sparks fairly well after charring - like horse hoof fungus or shelf mushroom. Just bake/char it like making charcloth.

Karl Koster did find one journal entry up around the Great Lakes that talked about the local Indians using the downy feathers on the legs of Eagles to catch that spark! Ummm ... I think I won't try that one.

The other major method was to use amadou. This was a specific layer of material in a shelf mushroom that was soaked in potassium nitrate. The layer is just below the hard outer shell, and before the main "gills" inside. It is often only 1/4 inch thick or less. That layer is almost like felt. You cut it out, and then lightly pound it to help fluff it up. Occasionally you can get it to take a spark as-is, but most then soak it in a potassium nitrate solution. When soaked and dried, it will then catch a spark fairly fast, and then burn fast/hot - a lot like a cross between a cannon fuse and a matchlock slowmatch.

In major cities, amadou was made and sold by street vendors. They got the potassium nitrate by using boiled urine. Even the old Vikings wrote about making it.

Those modern "fire steels" made from ferro-cerrium give off hot enough sparks that you can start many things burning as-is - like dry grass or leaves. That ferro-cerrium is the same stuff as is under the thumb wheel on a modern cigarette lighter. Just scraping it with a hard/sharp edge will give you tons of white hot sparks! Those sparks get hot enough that they can get magnesium shavings/scrapings burning. That's why they make those camping fire starting blocks of magnesium with that ferro-cerrium rod on the other edge.

Just a few humble rambling thoughts to share. Good luck on your fire starting experiments.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[vthompson]

Mike, thank you for your explanation on fire starting, I enjoyed the read.

 

[jbtusa]

VThomp: Exactly my question too. There is no documented use of charcloth by the early 1800's mountain men or use of tin boxes to char punk wood or anything else for that matter. Being that starting fire was of utmost importance, a matter of life or death in daily circumstances for those guys back then, the mountain men had surely worked out a reliable and proven method of starting fire under the most trying of circumstances. That is what leads to my reasoning that they probably used gunpowder with their flint and steels. Like I've said before, when cold, tired, miserable and exhausted and it's dark, start the fire NOW; i.e., give me the gunpowder or gasoline and forget the charcloth! I'm sure it was no different for the mountain men either.

 

VThomp:There is no documented use of charcloth by the early 1800's mountain men or use of tin boxes to char punk wood or anything else for that matter. .... That is what leads to my reasoning that they probably used gunpowder with their flint and steels.

You can't use lack of documentation for one thing, to justify something else. There are a great many things that were so mundane and routine that no one happened to document them.

Lack of documentation for "A" is not proof of "B".

 

[ameling]

The problem with sooooo many things is that the details were ... lost to history. They just weren't written down.

One of the things Karl Koster did find when he was researching fire starting around the Great Lakes fur trade area was many references in the journals about problems getting a fire started - and the hardship that lack of fire had on the people. Time after time he found journal entries about it - for many reasons. Sometimes it was weather related - heavy rain. Sometimes it was lack of material to catch that spark and/or lack of material for tinder. And sometimes it was the lack of a flint striker.

Yes, the lock of a gun can be used. But in the Great Lakes fur trade area, many many people did not have a gun with them. Many did not even know how to load/shoot one. Most of the voyageurs did not even own a gun. They just did not need it in their travels. They were on friendly terms with the Indians, and had very few problems with them. Yes, this is quite different from down in the Ohio/Illinois country, and the western Rocky Mountain fur trade areas. So many did not even have a gun along to use to start a fire.

Even in the cities/settlements, the journals/accounts/diaries have entries in them about going to a neighbor to get some coals to start a fire. One preacher even greatly complained about the firewood his parish supplied him - being GREEN cut firewood instead of seasoned/dried! He had much trouble just getting it to burn, and even a harder time keep warm with it or cooking.

So much .. detail ... that was lost to history, because nobody thought it worth writing down.

Mikey

 

[paulvallandigham]

IF YOU SMEAR SOME BLACK POWDER on your tinder, it will help catch and hold the sparks. The problem always is in keeping the tinder DRY- really DRY. I juse hemp rope, and jute twine when demonstrating fire starting with flint and steel, but I make sure I don't hold it in my palms too long. otherwise, the moisture from my own hands will dampen it enough to keep if from taking sparks. Dry fungus in sunlight for a couple of hours. I have dried out damp hemp rope on a rock in the sunlight for an hour or so, turning it around every 15 minutes or so, and then had it dry enough to catch and hold sparks. At home, dry the tinder in your oven on low heat, or zap it in your microwave. Once you do get a fire started, take the time to char the fungus, or tinder, and then bag it to keep it absolutely dry for the next use.

You might also think to try 4-0 steel wool if you are having trouble getting your natural tinder to light. It lights easily because of the oil on the wool, and the fine diameter of the wool. It burns intensely, and can be used to light fungus, or other tinders that otherwise won't light.

Also, practice locating dry tinder in rains. The small dead twigs on the inside of Yew bushes burn easily. Dead twigs and limbs hung up in trees will burn easily, in spite of the wet on the outer bark. AVOID anything that lies on the ground, as it will be wet from absorbing water every night.Any pines, or firs have needles and dead twigs on the insides that are very dry, and have oils that will aid in burning.

At home, take some lint out of the dryer, and save that for tinder.That almost always will catch sparks and burn.

Look for large tree trunks and limbs that lean over, making a roof for leaves and debris that gather underneath. Old birds nest make good tinder. All the twigs are small, and very dry. Look for rock overhangs and debris that gathers under them for burning dry.

I look for standing dead trees- the ones that the wood peckers, and bugs have half eaten. The wood is DEAD, and very dry. Even in rain, these dead woods have very dry insides. Just peel off the bark, and break up the wood in your DRY hands. Char some over the fire for later use.

Best wishes. Thanks for giving fire starting a good try. With your experience with what doesn't work, NOW you can try the things that do, and better understand why they do and why the others didn't. Its an important lesson to learn. You will not forget. Hang in there. :thumbsup:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

When I was a kid, my brother showed me a trick using birch bark. For the life of me I can't remember which birch, but it was dark brown. On trees about 10 inches in diameter, the bark would split and pull our slightly. He broke off a few pieces of the raised bark ends. The stuff lit like it was soaked in oil, even on rainy days.

 

[Rod Lassey]

Birch bark and wood is like that--it won't catch a spark directly, but works well as part of the tinder 'birdsnest'. I don't know what kind of oil is in birchbark and birchwood, but the stuff burns like it's got kerosene in it. I always peel some birchbark off whenever I encounter a birch tree, to put in my fire starting kit. Problem is, here in western North Dakota, birch trees are the proverbial needle in the haystack---we do have native birches, but they are few and far between. And I haven't found a tinder fungus on any of the ones I know of, yet.

Rod

 

[ameling]

Yes, bark from a birch tree does start burning easily, and hot. But only if you have that initial spark caught on something else. If you take that birch bark, and "fuzz" up the surface, it will catch sparks from those modern ferro-cerrium rods and start burning. The sparks from those rods is a lot HOTTER than the sparks from a traditional flint striker.

One neat trick with birch bark. Take a section, fuzz up the surface, and then roll it into a tube. Not take your lit charcloth, or lit tinder fungus, or a coal from the fire, and poke that into the end of your tube. Now carefully blow on it and into that tube to perk up the heat. You will quickly have a mini blow-torch! Just do it carefully!

Mikey

 

[LaBonte]

the mountain men had surely worked out a reliable and proven method of starting fire under the most trying of circumstances.

Actually there are a fair number of original citations to the contrary - citations in which trouble starting a fire was noted....period citations trump speculation until such speculation is supported.....
Just one example
James Clyman

it was agre that I should arise and gather some sage brush which was small and scarce and wold remain under the Buffaloe robe and keep his hands warm if posibi to strike fire But all our calculations failed for as soon our hands became exposed to the air they became so numb that we could not hold the flint and Steel we then recourse to our guns with no better Success for the wind was So strong and for the want of some fine metireal to catch the fire in

Clyman also noted using petrified wood to strike a fire with his steel, but included no note of the type char or anything else used.

For those interested in the subject of various chars Gene Hickman & Ron Garritson wrote a good article on char experiments here in the west http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd's/Char2.pdf

An eastern cite which notes the use of Spanish Moss and char cloth......

“I observed here a kind of Moss I had never seen before; it grows in great Quantities upon the large Trees, and hangs down 3 or 4 Yards from the Boughs; it gives a noble, ancient and hoary Look to the Woods; it is of a whitish green Colour, but when dried, is black like Horse-hair. This the Indians use for wadding their Guns, and making their Couches soft under the Skins of Beasts, which serve them for beds. They use it also for Tinder, striking Fire by flashing the Pans of their Guns into a handful of it, and for all other Uses where old Linnen would be necessary.”

Moore, Francis. A Voyage to Georgia, Begun in the Year 1735. London: Jacob Robinson, 1744.

Using Puffballs and BP http://www.manuellisaparty.com/articles/pfd's/Hidatsa Fire Making from Gilbert L.pdf

...The puff ball was used in making a fire with flint and steel. It was a man’s part to make the fire. He cut out a thin slice about as big as the two joints of my first three fingers and thick as a piece of blanket cloth. One side he rubbed well with gun powder, wetted. Every man had a flint case and also carried a steel made like a ring from an old file. This steel he used to make fire and for sharpening his knife also. I have often seen my father make fire with flint and steel. To make a fire he held three things in his hand the piece of puff ball, a piece of flint and the steel shaped like a ring. He used a slice of puff ball the size I have described every time he made a fire. He did not carry many of these slices in his fire case. The steel hung down slung by a buckskin thong to his belt. The puff ball in a little bag or case with the flint...
”¦ To make a fire, my father took a little dried grass in his left hand, laid on it the little slab of puff ball with powder side up, and the flint on that held tight by his thumb. The sparks were struck downward on the puff ball slice which caught with a swi-I-I-sh, and he folded the grass over the burning bit of puff and shook it and waved it to right and left as he held it in both hands till the grass caught fire. As I remember, Small-ankle did not strike the spark upon one whole puff ball, but carried in his fire bag a number of these powder prepared bits of puff ball”¦Sometimes he used very soft rotten wood instead of a puff ball.
...He gathered the puff balls in the fall when they were ripe. I think he usually gathered three, when ripe, that is when the ball had opened. He cut the slices out with a knife. I do not know how many he cut, however, my father cut the slices not I. I do not know how many slices one puff ball made.

From Alexander Henry's journal.
While he was living with the Ojibwe, he was out hunting (in winter). He mentions having only the lock of his gun to start a fire (the lock bolts were missing, the lock was tied on, and to start the fire he untied it for use). Anyway, while hunting, the tying came loose and he lost his lock. Unable to find it, he was unable to get a fire going - he got himself lost and needed a fire.

 

[vthompson]

I would like to thank everyone that responded to my post, I really enjoyed the reads.

 

[crockett]

Yeah, I was going to say the same as LaBonte, there are journals in which mountain men simply could not strike fire and they rode out the night wet and cold, they slept in puddles and covered themselves in raw buffalo hides. Accounts of sparks being sent into a tinder box imply that tinder was kept in the box and kept dry. I think I recall someone starting fire in a kettle because the ground was too wet. You can also take a roll of birch bark and get your fire started inside the roll.
I think we some times image mountain men as always mastering every task but it seems to me that those who survived often did so by having incredible ability to withstand hardship. One of the mountain men- Clyman, Russel, or Ferris- I forgot was shot in the knee, built crutches and hobbled all the way back to Fort Hall.

 

[boar]

I did it once with maple punk out of a stump. I filled my lap with it and kept trying till I caught a ember. This in deer season was waiting on my buddy to come out of the woods. Once you had a ember it stayed. Took some home and couldn't repeat it . Dilly

 

[jbtusa]

Carl: You are correct. But please note that I always prefaced my remarks by clearly and openly labeling my comments as speculation and deductive reasoning, never as stated fact. Please also note that I am not the one misrepresenting the use of charcloth by the old timers. I am the one questioning the use of the charcloth. Moderns are the ones guilty of the misrepresentation, not me.

 

[necchi]

Milkweed pod harvested in the fall after it has split to spill it's seed,,dried and charred will catch a spark. inside those halves of pod is found a small filmy section length wise along each side, 10-15 of those kinda crushed and rolled to a ball in your palms, will catch a spark.
As said before, dry storage and handling is key.

 

[vthompson]

Milkweed pod harvested in the fall after it has split to spill it's seed,,dried and charred will catch a spark. inside those halves of pod is found a small filmy section length wise along each side, 10-15 of those kinda crushed and rolled to a ball in your palms, will catch a spark.
As said before, dry storage and handling is key.

Thanks for the post, I am going to try that out this coming fall.

 

[pichou]

First a curl of birch bark as dry as it can be,
Then some twigs of soft wood, dead, but on the tree,
Last of all some pine-knots to make the kittle foam,
And there's a fire to make you think you're settin' right at home.

Ballad of Cracked Jimmy, by Ernest Thompson Seaton.

 

[crockett]

I just had a thought and maybe it has some value. Marcy was an officer in the U.S. Army that went west pre-1840. In 1859 he wrote a book, The Prairie Traveler- for immigrants going west. A book of helpful hints. The book is on line-PDF and you can down load it or Hamilton booksellers has it for about $8. In any event there is some reference to the mountaineers. Black Beaver is discussed.
On fire starting he says use lucifer matches if available. On flint and steel (p 157)he speaks of rubbing cedar bark into shreds and after enough is collected a moistened rag is rubbed with powder and a spark struck into it , which will ignite it, this is placed in the center of the loose nest of inflammable material and whirled around in the air until it bursts into flames.
First, just cause Marcy wrote something in 1859 and he was west for 25 years (1834) doesn't mean what he says is what the mountaineers did but why didn't he mention making char cloth? Another point- this idea that cloth was so valuable that it would not be used to start a fire- Marcy's advice on the rag seems to dispel that. And, finally. If we use char cloth instead of a damp rag rubbed with gun powder- the char cloth is probably safer and the mechanics are really the same- you are still striking sparks into a rag and then putting the rag into the bird's nest and waving or blowing it into a flame.
So maybe we CAN use our char cloth with a clear conscious.