double flinter??

[berickson]

anyone know who makes them? i've had a hankering for a while now for a dbl 12 ga but to this point haven't been able to track one down so i've been safe. i would imagine they will be priced out of my league but why else would we dare dream but to move forward. :shocking:
cool quote eh? don't know where that came from. feel free to use it with the proper aknowledgments. :: ::

 

[shunka]

Several Years ago, I read of an effort by a fellow to persuade a maker (Pedersoli, perhaps?) to build their 12 gauge double with flintlocks as well as caplocks. With all the back and forth it became apparent that the manufacturor was far more willing to listen to their so-called "Marketing Experts" than than to the voice of the many customers. The fellow even had an email/ snail mail campaign to going with some success, to demonstrate his point, but all to no avail... :-(

I have found that at some point, a maker chooses to become a corporation, and the next thing you know corporate decsions prevail based on scientific market research, cost analysis, and penny-slicing manufacturing "improvements". At that point, the customer's wants and desires are no longer relevant, and he has become merely the last cog in the "consumer machine".

However, before we lament this situation completely, we can see 3 great benefits: mass production of affordable standardized products; and a New Niche for makers such as TVM and a perfect Niche for the Custom Builders.

check out the discussion on the builder's forum about CaptChee's Marvelous project:
daisy's double a caplock double gun.

perhaps you could persuade CaptChee to build a flinter for you? ...

 

[berickson]

shunka-
interesting thoughts - and i agree wholeheartedly. the mass produced arms by lyman, pedersoli etc i am sure are superior to the "mass produced" arms of long ago. then there are the semi-custom builders and the custom builders of today using modern steel etc.
if someone was to ask me when the "GOLDEN AGE" of black powder firearms was i would say - right now.
the stuff being built today will be tomorrow's museum pieces .
i have a buddy who has a double 16ga flinter - a beautiful piece.
until i find what i want i'll wait, use my trade gun - maybe buy a caplock pedersoli or something. no big strain.

 

[Dave K]

I would love it if someone was making a precarved stock or a kit. Of course I would HAVE to have Damascus barrels. Anything in the 12ga. to 20ga. would be great.

 

[brushbuster]

I would love it if someone was making a precarved stock or a kit. Of course I would HAVE to have Damascus barrels. Anything in the 12ga. to 20ga. would be great.

ditto!!! you are correct sir!!!!

 

[waksupi]

Tim Mitchell built some double flint shotguns for the Alamo movie. He started with Navy Arms shotguns, and converted them.

 

Well
While you can convert a SXS percussion to flint the correct way IMO would be using Damascus barrels .
Depending on the time frame you may want octagon to round barrels over the later round style of plain Damascus twist.
The main problem with a plain conversion is the style of stock . See many percussion system such as those available through Navy Arms or pedersoli have a lock system that sets under the barrel giving the hammers a better line on the nipples . These IMO are not good candidates for the basic reason that even if you change the breeches or plug and re drill the breeches your pan will end up to far under the barrel when it should be on the side of the barrel . While the barrels themselves might make a good modern version , the stocks may cause you a problem however the rest of the components minus the locks should be perfectly usable

Now on the old CVA

 

[berickson]

i can see what you mean. many of the percussion doubles actually strike on the top of the barrel. my friends 16 ga dbl flinter IS quite wide by the time you get the pans et all out there. his is probably around 4"wide.
a 10 gauge would probably be 5-6". that's a big wack of steel in front of you to swing.
percussion could be the way to go - and a lot cheaper with pedersoli etc. putting out 10 gauges.
how do the barrels hold up to steel shot? i think damascus would be out for that reason.
i'm assuming bizmuth should be ok.
the nice thing about flinters is the govt here doesn't consider them guns ergo no registration.
the other nice thing is flints look cool.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Converting double percussion can be a bit of a chore since the breech style are quite different. The English style used locks that tapered to the rear to put the sidest part of the breech area at the lock fronts. Other styles that use parallel locks are wide through the breech area and though functional, don't have near the styling of the English made guns. Track has a double with a rifled and smooth bore on their site. This one has parallel locks and you can see how thick it is around the locks. I wish they'd keep their photos up of guns they sell as they used to do. They sold several double flinters over the last couple years and the photos were helpful in illustrating the two styles. Unfortunately, double flinters will run from about $1,500 and up. A fact of life!

 

[riverrat43]

If you want to look at a double flinter ar two, you might try www.drake.net Looking is all I can do there. Be careful though, from the prices of those pieces, if they find out you're looking they might charge for that too! They even have ammuniton for OVER $100 per round! :what:

 

Drakes has some great pic

 

[Rebel]

I have a Navy Arms double barrel .12 ga. I called Navy Arms after i got it, ( about four years ago) and asked about using steel shot in it. It has cylinder bore barrels. They said it was fine as long as i used the special plastic steel shot cups with it. I have fired a whole lot of shots through it using steel shot for ducks and geese, and countless rounds of lead shot, and the barrels still look like new. As long as there is no choke, steel shot is safe to use. The Pedersoli's that Cabela's sell say they have chrome lined bores for use with steel shot. Can't say how well they work as i have never owned one.

 

a note here to other shot types as well.
i just got off the phone with Idaho Fish and game and they told me that

 

[KyFlintlock]

hornhead,

I have always wanted a double-barrell flinter, maybe someday!!! They sure are something to behold.

 

[Ron LaClair]

Last night on the History Channel there was a documentary on 18th century English gunmaker Joseph Manton. His double flintlock guns are said to be the finest ever made. It showed closeups of his totally waterproof lock.

It was very interesting, I was hoping they'd offer the program on DVD or VHS...no such luck :shake: :cry:

 

[robinghewitt]

documentary on 18th century English gunmaker Joseph Manton

Did they mention how he lost all his money? Durs Egg lost his in a ballon project, but I don't know how JM lost his.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Old Joe lost his money in an endless series of law suits against folks who infringed upon his patent rights. What finished him off and put him into debtors prison was a suit against the army for recompense for his design of a device to produce spin on a cannon ball. It involved rifling the barrel of a standard cannon and fitting a wooden shoe behind the ball and attached to the ball with tin strips. All Joe wanted was to manufacture the wooden "sabots' and sell them to the army. He became incensed when they cut out the middle man and he sued his way into bankruptcy. Like many a genius, his focus was a trifle narrow, and he often could not see the forest for the trees it seems. But he was easily one of the finest gun makers the world has ever seen. Or ever will.

 

[Ron LaClair]

Yes, it was because he had so many lawsuits going. He sued a lot of people for copying his designs. He even tried to sue the government for breach of contract. Under contract with them he designed a rifled cannon and an explosive cannon shell. The British government started making some of the parts themselves so Manton sued them. After years of litigation his money finally ran out and he died in poverty. Sad story.

 

[Ron LaClair]

Ye beat me to the punch Russ :redthumb:

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

It is truly a sad story. Here we have a man who made firearms of such quality that they are usable two hundred years later and the elegance of their lines is still echoed in modern shotguns. In his day, the upper class stood in line for his guns and paid a premium without complaint. His
bespoke shotguns are as desirable today as when new. Yet he died in abject poverty because of this one obsession--and he
was in the right-- and he couldn't let it go. Today one of his guns in firable condition starts at ten thousand pounds
sterling, say eighteen or nineteen thousand dollars. If he
were making his guns today, he would once again be a rich man--provided that he could resist sueing everyone he met. I
would dearly love a chance to spend a few hours talking to him and I expect I'm not alone in that.