Double pouch pattern in Albert’s book??

[MIOutdoorsman]

I am embarking on my first ever hunting pouch make, and I’ve read T. C. Albert’s book entirely (Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch).

The book has patterns in the back, and I’ve chosen the double pouch bag. I wanted it slightly larger so I set my photo copier to enlarge to 108%. After cutting out the patterns (paper) however I think something may be wrong with his pattern?? It appears like the double pouch pockets that would be the inside middle of the finished hunting pouch are about an inch wider than both the back body and the front body. Just to be certain that it was not my photocopying, I measured his actual patterns in the book and sure enough his pattern for the double pouch pocket body cuts are about an inch wider than his pattern for the back body and the front body.

Does anybody out there know if this is by design and I should cut the leather like this and then “bunch up” the pieces so that they bulge a bit in the middle? This book is a really fantastic resource and everybody recommends it so I find it hard to believe that I’m the first one to notice this pattern glitch if indeed it is a printing error.

Much obliged

 

[smo]

I don't have my copy of the book handy, does the pouch have to be turn right side out after sewing?

 

[Artificer]

I don't have the book, so pardon me for just winging it here.

Are there welts or strips of leather in the pattern that are to be sewn between the back and middle panels and another sewn between the middle and front panels to extend the open space for each "pouch" in the double pouch?

If not, then that added width you mention is most likely the way to get more additional open space in each "pouch" of the double pouch, compared to just flat sewing identical pieces together that would not allow as much open space in each pouch.

Also, is there anything mentioned in the directions for that pouch about "gathering" the wider pieces to be sewn to the narrower pieces?

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

I've made several of them, and they actually worked out quite well using his pattern. Pay attention to his detailed instruction for finishing the welts. The size disparity you reference functions almost like a gusset for helping give a little extra space in an otherwise small bag.

I've thought of using the copier to make it bigger, but never got around to trying it. Let us know how it turns out!

 

[smo]

Talking with a Friend who's looking at the book..

Just flip inside out when complete.

That makes a belly in the bottom of both pouches.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Thank you all. I wondered if this was the idea, but before cutting leather I wanted to make sure.

(Yes, these pieces get sewn toghether and then turned inside out.)

This will be my first sewing experience, let alone with leather! I’ll post pictures guys, but it’ll take me a while!

 

[Black Hand]

This will be my first sewing experience, let alone with leather!

Small, regular stitches are key...

 

[smo]

Thank you all. I wondered if this was the idea, but before cutting leather I wanted to make sure.

(Yes, these pieces get sewn toghether and then turned inside out.)

This will be my first sewing experience, let alone with leather! I’ll post pictures guys, but it’ll take me a while!

You picked a tough one to start with in my opinion...

I have the pattern cut out of thick leather then realized how hard it would be to turn and didn’t sew it together.

Watch your fingers! Good Luck on your project .

 

[longcruise]

One of the patterns in his book Is incorrect. When I discovered this i brought it to TC's attention and he checked it out and acknowledged the error. I suspect you are working with that pattern.

TC offered to send me a corrected pattern but I declined since I'd already fixed it.

All the other patterns in his book are spot on. I'm going to suggest that you select a different pattern for your first bag. Once you have finished one you will have a clear understanding of how patterning works and you will be able to create your own patterns easily.

A double bag is not very difficult to do. Just takes a little more time and planning (and, my Android is wisely insisting that I also say patience ]. I and my grandson built a triple cause he wanted to carry lots of stuff. Looks like a mailman's bag. :rotf:

The first one I built from his book was the featured project, the Northampton bag. When you do the gusset on that bag it's pretty roomy.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Well shucks guys.. I've already started this one, and actually I think the pattern was ok (so far!). Only one small cut to the finger too, which for me, is pretty good.

I do have a question regarding dying, but first a couple of pics of the two pockets that I finished sewing last night. Some of my stitching got a little "wonky" but as this will be turned inside-out, I suppose it'll be ok.

First the two pouches, sewn with the rough sides out.

And here you can see the smooth inside of one:

Now to my question:

The next step is to inside-these-out and sew them together along the shorter sides, which will be the middle of the completed bag. I plan on using some leather dye that I purchased from Tandy on advice from them for the exterior of the finished bag. What you see in these pictures will obviously be the inside of the bags. I know some guys also stitch in material, but I'm trying to keep this first bag simple.

(1) Should dye these rough sides now before turning inside out? I could leave them raw colored too, or dye them after I'm completely done. Dying now probably is a better result, though I risk getting dye on the smooth sides too, and don't want to mess that up. Advice?

(2) I need to completely wet these before turning them inside-out, else I'll never get this leather to bend! Can I do that after its been dyed? (I did also buy this "setting" stuff that the Tandy guy recommended that I use after dying, but I understood that mainly to be for the exterior/finished surfaces, and mainly to prevent the dye from fading or bleeding out.)

Thanks in advance!

 

[Artificer]

In the 18th century, they only dyed the smooth side of the leather and left the rough side "natural." That way the rough side would always soak up the preservative oil on the rough side that you will need to add when the pouch is finished and from time to time in the future. Note: The only exception to this I know of is they sometimes dyed just the edges of the leather along with the smooth side. For example on belts or straps; they would WET the leather then lay it flat down with the smooth side up. They dyed the top and sometimes the sides of the belts/straps, but not the rough bottom. You could also dye the edges of the tops of the pouches and the edge of the pouch flap as well, if you wish. Hope that is clear.

HOWEVER, DO NOT oil the rough side yet as the oil can/will interfere with dyeing the leather.

Yes, you will need to soak the leather in water to turn it inside out and especially to force the sewed edges out in as neat of a profile as you can. IF the leather begins to dry out and you are still forming it, then wet the leather again to finish forming it. I like to use something like the rounded grip end of a butter knife to force the sewed edges outward to a smooth profile. Wetting the leather a few times will not hurt the leather at this stage and will allow you to get as smooth of a profile as possible when you turn the two pouches inside out.

Also, it is always best to wet the smooth side of the leather before dyeing, especially with modern dyes like Fiebings or other name brands. So with the leather still wet, you can dye the smooth sides of the pouches before it dries AND/OR wet the area/s of the leather that did dry before dyeing.

Some folks dye the leather pieces on the smooth side before sewing up a project and then "Touch up" dye any sewed areas that expose undyed leather. Other folks wait till the pouch/pouches are sewn and turned inside out.

After trying small and large wool daubs and other things over the years, I have settled on using a wad of paper towels I wet with the dye and then carefully swipe over the leather to get as uniform color as possible.

In another recent thread in this section, Brown Bear mentioned "reducing or thinning the dye" to build up to the color you want and using the following to an even sprayed on finish. I personally have never tried one of those things but find it intriguing and will probably get one on my next trip to Tandy. https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/preval-power-unit

Never sure if what I write is completely understood, so if you have more questions, please ask.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

P.S. to above post.

When I use a wad of paper towels to dye, I put the wad over the bottle and tip it to get some dye on the wad and then sort of bunch the wad. That way, the wad is not "wet" but rather damp with the dye. That allows me to swipe the dye on and get a more even color.

If you have not dyed leather before, I suggest you try it on some scrap pieces before you dye the pouches or other parts of your project, to get a feel for doing it and to achieve the color you want.

Gus

 

[BrownBear]

Some of my stitching got a little "wonky" but as this will be turned inside-out, I suppose it'll be ok.

It will be okay, even if some of your wanders might change the way it hangs a little. The solution to wandering stitches is actually pretty easy and the tools won't cost you all that much. Get yourself one of these to mark a consistent line around the edge. If you don't want it to cut a groove, just replace the little grooving part with an Allen wrench, wet the leather a little and run it around the edge to leave a mark. Next up use one of these to lay out evenly spaced marks for your stitches. I'd probably get a size 7 (7 stitches per inch), which will look better than 5 stitches per inch when you sew something that won't be reversed. In addition, closer spacing works better on thinner leather, should you go to that, but is still fine with the thicker stuff. I go down to 12 stitches per inch for the thinnest leather, but settle in the 7-8 range for 4-5 ounce.

As for dying, meh. I kinda dislike looking into a bag and seeing raw leather, so I dye mine even if it departs from tradition. One vote against doing it before reversing is the likelihood that the leather will shrink a little in the dying and make it harder to join the edges evenly for the last seam.

On my double bags I just stick my airbrush into the pouches after reversing and while dying the outside and wallow it around a bit till I don't see any more raw leather. Before I got the air brush I did the same thing with a dauber.

You're making great headway. Keep it up! I can guarantee that this won't be the last bag you make, and that's a good thing.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Thanks Gus! Your attention to detail in this response is really fantastic. If you'll indulge a couple of follow-up questions from me??

In the 18th century, they only dyed the smooth side of the leather and left the rough side "natural." That way the rough side would always soak up the preservative oil on the rough side that you will need to add when the pouch is finished and from time to time in the future. Note: The only exception to this I know of is they sometimes dyed just the edges of the leather along with the smooth side. For example on belts or straps; they would WET the leather then lay it flat down with the smooth side up. They dyed the top and sometimes the sides of the belts/straps, but not the rough bottom. You could also dye the edges of the tops of the pouches and the edge of the pouch flap as well, if you wish. Hope that is clear.

HOWEVER, DO NOT oil the rough side yet as the oil can/will interfere with dyeing the leather.

I'm totally new to leather-working. I bought a dye product from Tandy, and also something that they said I would use AFTER the dye to set the finished color and prevent it from rubbing off.

What is this "oiling" you speak of? Is that a third product or process, or is that what Tandy sold me to put over the top of the stain?

Yes, you will need to soak the leather in water to turn it inside out and especially to force the sewed edges out in as neat of a profile as you can. IF the leather begins to dry out and you are still forming it, then wet the leather again to finish forming it. I like to use something like the rounded grip end of a butter knife to force the sewed edges outward to a smooth profile. Wetting the leather a few times will not hurt the leather at this stage and will allow you to get as smooth of a profile as possible when you turn the two pouches inside out.

This is good to know, because I'll have to wet these pieces, turn them inside-out, dry them, sew them together, and then finish off the bag before I break out any dying equipment! I was told to minimize the number of wetting-rewetting I do with the leather, but there's really no way around this. Glad to know this is the usual approach.

Also, it is always best to wet the smooth side of the leather before dyeing, especially with modern dyes like Fiebings or other name brands. So with the leather still wet, you can dye the smooth sides of the pouches before it dries AND/OR wet the area/s of the leather that did dry before dyeing.

Some folks dye the leather pieces on the smooth side before sewing up a project and then "Touch up" dye any sewed areas that expose undyed leather. Other folks wait till the pouch/pouches are sewn and turned inside out.

After trying small and large wool daubs and other things over the years, I have settled on using a wad of paper towels I wet with the dye and then carefully swipe over the leather to get as uniform color as possible.

In another recent thread in this section, Brown Bear mentioned "reducing or thinning the dye" to build up to the color you want and using the following to an even sprayed on finish. I personally have never tried one of those things but find it intriguing and will probably get one on my next trip to Tandy. https://www.tandyleather.com/en/product/preval-power-unit

Never sure if what I write is completely understood, so if you have more questions, please ask.

Gus

Yes-I saw that thread too, and have been contemplating my methods. I bought some dobbers to apply the stain, but now ya got me thinking!

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Great advice BrownBear! I have one of those wheel stitch things, but I hadn't see that other groove tool.. That would certainly make this easier!

Even with the overstitch wheel, I had to follow up by darkening the little divots that it made with a dark pencil--I could barely see the little tiny pin pricks it made otherwise.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

P.S. to above post.

When I use a wad of paper towels to dye, I put the wad over the bottle and tip it to get some dye on the wad and then sort of bunch the wad. That way, the wad is not "wet" but rather damp with the dye. That allows me to swipe the dye on and get a more even color.

If you have not dyed leather before, I suggest you try it on some scrap pieces before you dye the pouches or other parts of your project, to get a feel for doing it and to achieve the color you want.

Gus

Excellent idea again. I ran a couple of inches of stitching on a couple of scraps too before I started this project--just to see if I could do it! Makes perfect sense that I should test my dying on some scraps too. Thanks!

 

[Artificer]

I'm totally new to leather-working. I bought a dye product from Tandy, and also something that they said I would use AFTER the dye to set the finished color and prevent it from rubbing off.

What is this "oiling" you speak of? Is that a third product or process, or is that what Tandy sold me to put over the top of the stain?

The "oiling" I refer to does not go on the smooth surface that you dye and put a "finish coat" to keep the dye from rubbing off. It goes on the rough side of the leather so it can soak into the fibers a bit and keep them supple so they don't dry out and crack/tear.

Traditionally the oiling on the rough side was done with Neats Foot Oil, but I MUCH prefer Lexol Leather Conditioner as it protects the leather better and there is no way to recognize it from Neats foot oil after it has been applied. Most Saddlery or "Tack" stores and some hardware stores carry it or you can get it at Tandy's or other places. You don't soak the rough side of the leather with it, but rather dampen the surface and rub it in.

Something our recent discussions on period leather tanning have caused me to think about is the probability that 18th century Vat Tanned leather did not come out as light or "colorless" as modern Vegetable Tanned Leather. The Vat Tanning probably turned the leather color that ranged from a light tan to a light or even medium brown. So they probably felt no need to color the rough parts of the leather.

However, I still prefer to let the Lexol or other oil "color" the rough side leather and do not dye it. I had some bad experiences a long time ago with dying the rough sides of the leather and it resulted in the leather not being able to absorb the oil as needed.

Gus

BTW, Please ask any follow up questions you may have as the project progresses. There are a number of folks who will help as they can so you don't make the mistakes we made.

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Got it! So I dye the exterior, and oil the rough interior.

Thanks!

I'll keep posting pics as this progresses. Lots still to do, and I'm pretty intimidated by the next step of sewing these two pouches together. I find it difficult to get the needle through the leather when my access is unobstructed, but the next stitch line will be in a very obstructed area, and I'm not sure exactly how I'll be able to use my current tools (stitchwheel, awl) on the short sides of these two pouches!

Currently thinking that I'll use the corner of a cutting board, lay the tall sides of each pouch underneat the board at that corner, thereby allowing the top (short) piece that will receive the stitches an the top of the cutting board. From there I can use the stitch wheel (for much of it) and awl to pierce holes through. I'm still puzzled on how to align the two sets of holes though--on the outter and inner pouches. More thinking is in order.

 

[Artificer]

BTW, I have used the Lexol Leather Restorer MANY times on Civil War and even earlier period leather and it did a great job to keep them from further drying out/cracking. If I run out of the Lexol Conditioner, I will use the Restorer. Matter of fact when Lexol first came out, the only product they normally sold at Tack stores was the Restorer, so I have probably used that a whole lot more than the Conditioner.

Gus

 

[MIOutdoorsman]

Is this the stuff?
https://www.amazon.com/Lexol-E3008...517419248&sr=8-2&keywords=Lexol+restorer&th=1

It looks to be marketed primarily for use on the finished side of the leather, but if you suggest it's ok on the unfinished side, I'll go with it.