Double Shot Safety Issues?

[Cosmoline]

I couldn't find anything in the archives on this topic and I've found contradictory info elsewhere, so I figure I'd put it to the learned cabal round these parts.

I know of "buck and ball" loads for smoothbores and shotguns, and it's my understanding that done properly these are safe. I've also heard of double roundball loads in cap and ball revolvers. But what about a double ball load in a black powder rifle? Not a double charge, but just a second ball and patch hard against the first on the same charge. Is that an invitation to a kaboom? Anyone actually tried it?

Thanks!

 

[squirejohn]

Did it by mistake :shake: ,and am still upright and breathing - so is smoke pole.

 

[rabbit03]

I have tried it with good results in MY rifle.

two pathced 575 balls over 110 grns 2Fg blackpowder

rabbit03

 

[rabjr]

Your my hero Rabbit! :haha: I'll stick with one ball thank you. :surrender:

 

[renovato]

Ouch! I bet you felt that in yer bones for a while.

 

[rice1817]

Older Thompson Center manuals used to provide a double ball load. When you think about it, 2 50 caliber balls weigh about 360 grains, same as a 50 cal maxi. Won't hurt anything. Accuracy may or may not be usable, depending on the rifle.

My state prohibits multiple ball loads in Muzzleloaders for hunting,(not that anybody is going to check...you are on the honor system) but it would make for an interesting range session.

 

[Cosmoline]

The application I'm thinking about is bear protection with a .50 cal doublegun. Four .50 cal roundballs in quick order should be sufficient. So far it seems possible, so I may do some VERY CAREFUL testing this weekend, working up from light charges and watching for ball slippage in the second barrel.

 

[roundball]

"...what about a double ball load in a black powder rifle? Not a double charge, but just a second ball and patch hard against the first on the same charge. Is that an invitation to a kaboom? Anyone actually tried it?

Yes, in fact .45cal and .50cal double ball loads were actually listed in TC's load date charts in some of their early owner's manuals.

I've tried it in both calibers and their POI was side by side at 50yds...but I'm not sure about the practicality of it...ie: shooting a pair of 180grn RBs is not the same as shooting a single 360grn projectile of course, and you lose velocity with the heavier payload...the safety aspect would to ensure both PRBs are seated firmly down together.

 

[Cosmoline]

Sweet! That's some great information.

 

[longcruise]

I don't remember seeing that load data for my gun. It was purchased around 1974. Still have the manual so i'll look see if it's in there.

The info roundball posted pretty much covers it. Mine seemed to print one slightly above the other. Never could come up with a practical use for the load. Your idea of using it for bear protection might be the perfect application :grin:

I once heard it suggested that it's possible to compress air between the two balls and have the pressure push the second ball part way back down the barrel. Never happened to me but I always double checked just before the shot.

 

[Rancocas]

Keep in mind that recoil from the first barrel fired may cause the load to shift in the second barrel. If that second ball in the second barrel should slide up the bore a short ways separate from the other ball in that same barrel - you could have a big problem.

 

[wirehairman]

Never could come up with a practical use for the load. Your idea of using it for bear protection might be the perfect application :grin:

I actually think the term "loaded for bear" comes from double ball charges used back in the day.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Keep in mind that recoil from the first barrel fired may cause the load to shift in the second barrel. If that second ball in the second barrel should slide up the bore a short ways separate from the other ball in that same barrel - you could have a big problem.

Just drop both hammers at the same time...Porblem solved! :grin:

 

[rabbit03]

:thumbsup:

I am not sure of the group at 100 yds but the balls seemed to have hit within six inches or less of each other.

Recoil as I remember (last year) was not at all bad but keep in mind I was shooting my Hawken with the 1:70 or 72 twist) so that might have helped in making the recoil a bit less.

I can see the definite advantage of shooting two balls at dangerous game and imagine that it was done quite often.

rabbit03 (I would) :thumbsup:

 

[Dphar]

Lyman's BP Handbook has a high speed photo of 2 .560 RBs shot as a double load, they are not flying properly 7 ft from the muzzle and Lyman states accuracy beyond 25 yards is usually "fairly poor" to "even worse".


Dan

 

[shmrck1]

Just drop both hammers at the same time...Problem solved! :grin:

Wattsy,
I agree,most likely,no more gun,no more
shooter and one happy brown bear with a dinner.:surrender:
snake-eyes:hmm:

 

[shmrck1]

rabbit,
Maybe,I am in a minority here,but I don't
consider a brown bear at 100yards all that dangerous.Having said that,I don't mean to
diminish what they are capable of,but at a 100 yards we are the dangerous animal not the bear.
Now at 50 or less yards they can become a dangerous,very,very dangerous,especially if
hunting with traditional muzzleloaders. I would in that case want a buddy,or guide and none of
my ex-wives backing me up.
snake-eyes :hmm: :wink:

 

[mykeal]

...and none of
my ex-wives backing me up.
snake-eyes

What? You can't run faster than your ex-wives? :haha:

 

[rabbit03]

True! However don't forget a Brown Bear could be in your lap in just about the time it took you to thumb back the hammer if he were at 100 yds :grin:

But he wanted to know if I anyone had ever tried it and I have done it with good results, anyone else's results may vary in their rifle or smoothbore.

The comment about the bullets being on different paths at 7 feet from the muzzle according to the Lymann book, I am not disputing what someone wrote about the test they did in any particular rifle with it's own twist rate and barrel length etc., and can only speak from personal experience and it indeed worked for me. I would definitely use it if I thought I needed it without hesitation.

The important thing as mentioned above is that the second patched roundball needs to be firmly seated against the original ball or else your are courting danger.

rabbit03 (ex wives, their what's for dinner :barf: :barf:

 

[RedFeather]

One thing to consider is that a double load will not be going the same speed as a single ball. You're pushing twice the lead, so something has to give. While you will (hopefully) print four balls on the bear, they won't penetrate as deeply as two, alone. Makes a difference, especially if it's a large bear.

I think "loaded for bear" meant a stouter hunting load, not necessarily more bullets.