Double shotgun ID and Age??

[ToothPick]

I just picked this up and am wondering if anyone has any information about it as to country of origin and the approximate age of the gun.

The bore are about 5/8"

The name etched on the rib appears to say HUBARS & ARIER

Thanks

 

[Mike Brooks]

The name appears to be HUBANS and was located in ARIER. German or Belgian, ca 1850-1870.

 

[pichou]

I made it out as "d'Acier," or "of steel" in French.

"Rubans d'Acier" would be ribbons of steel.

 

I have to agree with Mike. German, Austrian or Belgian with a date closer to the 1870"s period.
Mark

 

[Lorne Johnson]

M. Pichou has the inscription nicely translated, which makes France, or possibly Belgium, the likely country of origin. The French produced quite a few unusual guns (always did have their own way of doing things).

 

[ToothPick]

Thanks for the info!

 

[dyemaker]

I think I have seen this firearm or maybe one very similar while looking through the guns at littlegun.be It is the stock that I recall. There is a list of countries on the left side of the homepage. I do not recall which country I saw it under because there were so many firearms.

 

[paulvallandigham]

You also see similar stock carving on some guns made in What is Now Denmark, on the German Border. What country claimed the towns back then depends on finding a more exact date of manufacture.

There should be proof marks, regardless of where the gun was made, on the bottom of the barrels, as the gun comes from Europe, and proofing was required for guns across the Continent.

 

[ToothPick]

Here are the marks on the bottoms of the barrels

What do you think???
thanks

 

[Mike Brooks]

The barrels at least were made in Belgium.

 

[paulvallandigham]

There is the number on the left side of the picture, but I can't make it out. You might do a pencil rubbing to bring it up so you can read all the numbers. I agree with Mike that the Barrels are Belgian made, based on the proof stamps.

Some of the barrels have markings ( numbers) on both barrels, particularly if they have different chokes. Others, have numbers on one barrel, and the proof stamps on the other. There is a chart under " Charts" here on the index page to the forum that converts millimeters to gauge, or "inches" for you. Go to the Member Resources section at the top of the index page, and scroll down to " Articles, Charts, and Links". Click on Links. That will help you understand what the markings mean. There are also simple formula available on Spenser's site, and here, I believe, to convert Millimeters to Inches.

 

[dyemaker]

It has sling attachments. I searched through littlegun.be for it but did not find it. I may have missed it. I swear I have seen a photo this same gun somewhere. Just don't know where. Those are Belgian marks but the gun may not be Belgian.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The indicators that the gun was not made in Belgium is the ornate carving behind the Trigger guard. You are correct. Belgium made barrels were sold everywhere. This is an early Percussion era gun- probably before the Am. Civil War. Its hard to tell. Many of these architectural elements survived well into the 20th century, but all but disappeared after WWI. You see not only ornate wood moldings, but even wood trigger guards on guns coming out of Europe, from Denmark, to Austria, from France to Hungary.

Many of the guns now surfacing here in the States were taken as " War Prizes" by American GIs in WWII, and have been hidden in closets for 60 years. As they are passing on, their children are trying to get rid of the guns.

 

[Story]

For what it's worth, this type of muzzleloader was still for sale in the 1911 issue of the German arms export firm ALPHA's catalog.

If I remember correctly, 'E L G star' is a Belgian black powder proof mark (as mentioned previously) used from 1811 onwards - I think they stopped using it for cartridge firearms in 1893, but for muzzleloaders continued.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Stoeger's catalogue had them at least up until WWII.

 

[ToothPick]

Maybe this picture will help with narrowing down the date of manufacture

Also, what would be the best way to deal with the active rust?

 

[mmahlock]

Based on my limited reference resources regarding marks and from the picture the E over LG over start in a an oval is the town mark from Liege, Belgium. Although it is not very clear, the mark above appears to be a crown over a V which if it is makes it either a London Gunmakers Company View mark (unlikely) or a counter mark of the controller of the proof house in Belgium (more likely).

My limited research on period shotguns leads me to look for additional marks. If it was a gun of any quality, each barrel should have been proofed separately before being assembled and again after being attached together. There may also be additional marks indicating the maker.

 

[robinghewitt]

Also, what would be the best way to deal with the active rust?

Back action locks suggests late 1850's, 1860's and in to the centre fire era.

Sling swivels with Belgian proofs and deer head under the wrist says made/restocked for the Austrian/German market.

If the rust has started to pit the only sensible way forward is by soaking in a chemical rust remover such as oxalic acid. That will leave you with grey metal.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Sling swivels with Belgian proofs and deer head under the wrist says made/restocked for the Austrian/German market.

I'm not trying to start trouble, but why the Autrian/German market? As many of these I have seen in this country I assumed they were an export item for the Belgians. Very curious as to why you think this Austro/German connection. Always learning you know! :v

 

[robinghewitt]

Very curious as to why you think this Austro/German connection. Always learning you know! :v

:hmm: possibly because nobody else wanted sling swivels on a shotgun? :hmm:

The Germans have always been a bit odd, look at the way they stuck with the wheel lock long after the rest of us went modern.

Why do I feel like I'm putting my neck on a chopping block :surrender: :rotf: