Double sided knives

[jamesthomas]

How often or rare did folks from the 1700 and 1800's carry double sided blades? Aren't they called dirks? or am I wrong on that?. Kinda thinking about getting one made.

 

[satx78247]

YEP. DIRKS, DAGGERS & at least one other thing that I "disremember" from the TPC.

yours, satx

 

[Claude Mathis]

Double-edge daggers go back a couple thousand years.

The dirk, kilt and targe lived on in the Highland regiments which began to be formed in the English Army. One regiment which rapidly became famous was the Black Watch, which fought successfully in America during the French and Indian War of the 1750's.

 

[Artificer]

Here is a thread you probably would enjoy reading along with LaBonte's excellent photo's.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/.../post/1500047/hl/dagger/fromsearch/1/#1500047

Gus

 

[Len Graves]

Just a quick caveat. Here in Mich. it is illegal to carry ( or even posses) a double edged knife. At an event some time ago we ran into a local Barney Fife who wanted to confiscate all double edged " weapons". We persevered and finally clearer heads prevailed. However be aware this is a law. Further, my son who is into flint knapping ran into a similar situation with flint blades and their group had to go to the Capitol to get some kind of variance for flint blades. I thank our lucky stars that we have a govt. to protect us from ourselves.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Just a quick caveat. Here in Mich. it is illegal to carry ( or even posses) a double edged knife.

Same in California.

 

[jamesthomas]

Here is a thread you probably would enjoy reading along with LaBonte's excellent photo's.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/.../post/1500047/hl/dagger/fromsearch/1/#1500047

Gus

Very nice Thread!! I see a couple I can have plans for. I like the long bladed one with the curled hand guard.

 

[crockett]

I read that there were actually two types of double edge blades. The kind we are all familiar with are the long blade fighting knives. Back in the day I think there were some shorter blades where one side was kept sharp for skinning, etc. and the other less sharp for general work, splitting bones, etc.
As stated, legal issues exist.
I'm mostly interested in the mountain men. There is a general misconception they all carried big "Bowie" fighting knives. I think Clyman mentions one when he was in California after 1840. Beckwourth mentions one when he was in the city of St. Louis. Provost has an 1839 inventory of the outfit he guided EASTWARD into Minnesota. That outfit also had mosquito netting. Anyhow one Bowie knife mentioned. I think that's about it. The dirk was much lighter and easier to carry than a big Bowie. The double edge might have been seen as more destructive if you had to fight a grizzly. I think the double edge dirk/dagger was likely far more common than the single blade fighting knife.
They sure look cool. I just finished a double edge with 10" blade, steel guard and pommel. Walnut handle.

 

[Claude Mathis]

There is a general misconception they all carried big "Bowie" fighting knives.

I never thought that. I always assumed they carried, what I consider, some form of "butcher" or "scalper" shaped blade.

 

[Nativearizonan]

Just trying to apply logic, the GRN butcher or scalper were great all around knives, but if someone was carrying a knife for use as a backup to their single shot rifle, I think a knife designed for fighting would have been in order. For long hunters, of course, the tomahawk was the backup, but heavy Bowie knives and even spanish style daggers and locally forged knives of all sorts, such as reground and re-handled broken swords were probably not that uncommon, especially in the Southern Plains and later in the period.

I doubt hunters of the day were much different than those of us today that, if given the chance, fall in love with all sorts of blades. The records of traders, of course, show the goods that traveled to the mountains, but do not show what individuals carried there or picked up in Taos, California, or from others.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Just trying to apply logic, the GRN butcher or scalper were great all around knives, but if someone was carrying a knife for use as a backup to their single shot rifle, I think a knife designed for fighting would have been in order.

I don't disagree and early photos of "mountain men" show them posing with large sheaths (which may be for the photo), but...

Logically, my back up would be a pistol.

Being stabbed or having your throat slashed with the knife below would probably deliver the same results as a different "shaped" blade. :wink:

(looks like a modified Old Hickory, 7in. blade)

 

[Claude Mathis]

Here's two photos of the same subject. In the first, a large knife in belt. In the second, a smaller knife and tomahawk on the floor.

You have to wonder how much of the equipment in old photos are merely props?

 

[LaBonte]

There is a general misconception they all carried big "Bowie" fighting knives. I think Clyman mentions one when he was in California after 1840. Beckwourth mentions one when he was in the city of St. Louis. Provost has an 1839 inventory of the outfit he guided EASTWARD into Minnesota. That outfit also had mosquito netting. Anyhow one Bowie knife mentioned. I think that's about it. The dirk was much lighter and easier to carry than a big Bowie.

A. J. Miller in his notes also used the term Bowie several times when describing the knives carried by the mountaineers.
As for the weight of Bowies, some originals are heavier than normal and modern repros are way too often overbuilt. In the 50 years I've been building knives and sheaths I've had the good luck to handle a 1,000 or so originals Bowies, mostly English from the 1830-1850 era and the vast majority even with blades in the 8-12" length most weighed between 8-12 ounces, no heavier than most modern hunting knives and much lighter than a pistol or hawk.
As for dirks - Scottish dirks are single edged not double edged (there may be exceptions but again the vast majority are single edge). The term later got applied to other forms of knives such as naval dirks and on one trade list there are Spanish dirks (most likely some form of the Spanish belduque.
as for the mountaineers carrying daggers here's just one description:
Here's how James Kirker was described by one of Doniphan's Missouri Regiment in 1846:
"Fringed buckskin shirt and breeches, heavy broad Mexican hat, huge spurs, all embellished and ornamented with Mexican finery......In addition to a Hawkens rifle elegantly mounted and ornamented with silver inlaid on the stock, he was armed with a choice assortment of pistols and Mexican daggers........."
As others have noted though many states have outlawed double edge daggers and even knives with a sharpedned clip, so be sure to check your local and state laws.

PS armakiller - where at south of Mobile are you? I lived in Fairhope for a while and my Granddad lived in Bayou la Batre for years...

 

[BrownBear]

You have to wonder how much of the equipment in old photos are merely props?

Anyone else notice his moccasins? :wink:

 

[jamesthomas]

I live in Grand Bay, Al. The Bayou is only about 10 miles away.

 

[Juice Jaws]

Claude, I know you can not carry a dagger on you in Ca., but can you have a collection of them at home?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Claude, I know you can not carry a dagger on you in Ca., but can you have a collection of them at home?

The penal code states "possession". Just like possession of drugs, I believe that applies to your person, vehicle and residence?

 

[Claude Mathis]

Actually, I believe the law in California was re-written and does not specifically mention "double-edge" in reference to a dirk.

A new thread is probably the best place to discuss this further.

 

[Juice Jaws]

ok, thanks

 

[tenngun]

I dont doubt that some of the boys carried some big 'fighting' knifes. Miller shows some large sheaths stuck in belts. However what we see in supplies going west are butcher knifes, almost by the ton. A good butcher wil show you the color of someones liver just as quick as a bowie, and easier to carry and use every day.