Dovetail sight ?

[oldwood]

Guys.........When oldwood looks at something like building m/l's ,he thinks in terms of , How would say , Jacob Dickert , have done it 250 years ago? I guarantee their sight dovetails , weren't mic.ed , and filed perfectly to some standard as each sight was made custom , and made to fit the situation. When I was a kid , 1950's, the only guns we worked on were modern factory rifles , WITH directional factory dovetails. I was aware of directional sight dovetails. I truly am to blame for informing folks , that it was OK , to alter their modern made factory M/L sight dovetails to a simple TIGHT slide through dovetail , back then. I promise not to use 18th century thinking , on modern M/l rifles any longer. Have installed around 400+ hand cut dovetails , and haven't had any "come-backs" due to loose sight dovetails. Some of the most famous m/l rifle builders of our times , spend time building elaborate jigs and fixtures to do simple operations to build a m/l rifle , I'm not one of those , as well. That kind of jig , and fixture use , tends to frighten the casual m/l builder away. Once **** Getz asked me , What your goal in m/l gun building? , I laughed and said ,"I wanted to cover the earth with m/l guns. " I failed to do that as well. Life is short ,make sure your dovetails are tight...................oldwood........

 

[doubleset]

I guarantee their sight dovetails, weren't mic.ed , and filed perfectly to some standard as each sight was made custom , and made to fit the situation.

So are you saying that the "tapered base" approach was taken as a kind of (pardon the expression, and no insult intended) "crutch" to provide the tightness needed in a dovetail sight? I can believe that.

Still, I'm a little puzzled because these guys are always touted as master craftsmen, and -- as you say -- this was "custom work". You can make perfectly good and precise dovetails and sight bases with hand tools that will be tight without tapering. Adding the taper seems like extra work for no gain. But maybe it was just a matter of practicality and time involved? Or maybe a matter of "belt and suspenders"?

 

[oldwood]

Sorry , I am not familiar w/the terminology "Belt and Suspenders". The two words together are sort of an oxymoron. I do wear suspenders , and with them , a belt isn't needed. And oops , I have sinned again , I use a Cross vise on a drill press to cut the initial trench in a barrel with a straight mill bit in it for both front and rear sight dovetails , on octagon barrels only. Even a clunky mill allows an easy way of maintaining the depth of the dove tail. Like most from there on , I have some standard sight files to finish the dovetails. All my work is on scratch built rifles , with precarved stocks . The only other work , not done by me , is barrel inlet, and r/r hole drilling. I buy sights from catalogs , and rework and modify some . Once the finished sight is in my hand , then the dovetails are cut. OOps , forgot , The "master craftsmen" I mentioned , are guys that are so talented , they get $ 10 K and up for their perfect dovetails on their amazing work. I'm pleased that day by day , my old brain and hands still sort-of work together , to build a tack driving rifle . I wish you well , and If I can share any old school knowledge , I would be pleased to do so.............oldwood

 

[doubleset]

Sorry , I am not familiar w/the terminology "Belt and Suspenders". The two words together are sort of an oxymoron.

Not an oxymoron -- nothing contradictory about wearing both. The phrase implies extra (or often excessive) security -- or in other contexts a kind of "conservatism".

I do wear suspenders , and with them , a belt isn't needed.

Well, it is if you want to wear a belt holster or clip various tools to you it, etc. Equipment belts of various sorts often come with a pair of matching suspenders in order to adequately support the load on the belt. In the last few years I have taken to wearing suspenders as well, and wonder why I didn't convert sooner. However, I do wear a belt on various occasions, and sometimes with the suspenders (waders, pistol, some tools, shotshell pouch for shotgun sports, etc.). But that isn't the sense of "belt and suspenders" I intended. I was wondering if the tapering of the sight base was being employed as taking an extra step to ensuring that the sight wouldn't move in the dovetail.

And oops , I have sinned again , I use a Cross vise on a drill press to cut the initial trench in a barrel with a straight mill bit in it for both front and rear sight dovetails , on octagon barrels only.

You use a mill bit in a drill press??? That really works for you? Not having a mill, I have often been tempted to try that, but was very concerned about the spindle and chuck being able to tolerate the lateral strain -- resulting in the bit wandering or trashing the runout on my press. Does that work for you without those problems? I've got my DP very well set up and with minimal runout. Would hate to screw that up. Or do you have one of those mill/drill combo machines?

 

[lew penning]

your best guessed direction. If that fails go the other direction. Just be careful!
Larry

Don't guess, measure. Get your magnifying glass out. One side is a millimeter wider. When you have done it so often that it is too loose, get out the epoxy.

 

[oldwood]

About 30 years ago , I ran across a cross vise in a Grizzly Industrial tool store. Called a buddy that knew of one and would come over and help set it up. The drill press I have is a large stand up one , I bought from Pennies Dept store back when they sold shop tools , 1970. Harbor Freight might have one , too.
The vise mounts typically centered onto the press table , with bolts , nuts , and washers. I had a 3/8 " factory ground center punch to put in the chuck to closely eyeball things for center when I crank the cross vise jaws , back and forth . All of the " minutia adjustments are simple". Just keep in mind everything works from the right angle from the vise jaws. Depth gauge for Dovetail cuts , is done with the up and down quill depth adjust. This drill press /cross vise is a dedicated sight slot machine , and I don't change the drill press parameters to do other procedures. I have a second old large drill press for actual drilling . To use the cross vise , the trick is to run the quill as fast as the belt pulleys will allow the motor to turn it. I use !/4 " straight mill bits to remove the center of the slot , but on soft m/l barrel steel , , have never done it , but a single side of the dovetail might be cut , with minor sight filing necessary. Another tip would be to employ a level brace to hold a gun barrel level , when cranking the cross vise back and forth. I employ a simple magnetic level to set up the barrel before milling. ..I hope all this verbiage helps. Wishing you well . If I can help , that's why I'm here...........Have a problem wearing belts , Had 4 ft. of my intestines removed 14 years ago , so belts can't be worn. "bout the only thing I carry in my trouser pockets is a 9mm. Suspenders hold my pants up , while belts irritate my guts. .........oldwood

 

[doubleset]

About 30 years ago , I ran across a cross vise in a Grizzly Industrial tool store. ...

I have a drill press similar to that. It's a Harbor Freight one I've had for about 30 years. 13" drill press, 16 speed, 3/4 hp motor. Bench top press, mounted on a moveable base I made for it. I recently put a Jacobs keyless chuck on it because I got real tired of the keyed chucks. It's a 1/2" chuck. I also have a vise like you describe (also HF). Not great, but it will get the work done I need it for. It's great for fairly precision woodworking, but at best marginal for metal work. I'm reluctant to put any lateral stress on the quill and bearings, and destroy the state that I've got it to. I check runout fairly regularly and it remains good. So I'll probably pass on the idea of using it as a poor man's mill. Pretty much all my other large power tools are Grizzly, but I have a few other HF tools (belt sander, oscillating sander, etc.) and they've been quite good.

 

[oldwood]

I'm going to get flack for this , but one of my all time favorite tools for installing butt plates is an HFreight 26K rpm die grinder, I detest pizzin' around w/scrapers , wood rasps , etc.. Just can't waste time doing it the old way. My butt plate installs w/ the die grinder , followed w/Dremel tool for the fine work , are as good as it gets. Not tellin' folks to do different than they been doin' , but suggesting it's an option.

 

[Larry (Omaha)]

Don't guess, measure. Get your magnifying glass out. One side is a millimeter wider. When you have done is so often it is loose, get out the epoxy.

Measuring is OK when dealing with a taper dovetail. Some are a parallel cut, in which case the exit direction is irrelevant.
I totally disagree with the epoxy. Dovetail metals need to be shimmed or peened.
Larry

 

[waksupi]

Drive the dovetail sight out w/a drift , direction doesn't matter. Flip the sight to the correct position , and tap it back in place. If it's a little loose , Take a flat face 3/32" pin punch and tap the top edges of the sight slot to tighten the dovetail. Should be good to go.

You can also use a center punch to raise some burring on the barrel dovetail surface to tighten them.

 

[doubleset]

You can also use a center punch to raise some burring on the barrel dovetail surface to tighten them.

This ("dimpling") is the recommendation from TOW when I asked them about a slightly loose fit I had with one of their sights. I have also used the similar approach of dimpling the underside of the sight base itself (which can be a little trickier in avoiding deforming the sight). Finally, I have also simply shimmed a sight base up in the dovetail using some thin brass shim stock (although aluminum cut from a can would work as well). You cut the shim and then tinker with inserting it just right under the partially seated sight so when you drive it in the shim goes in with it and aligns well and tightly. Each of these seems to work equally well, but dimpling the bottom of the dovetail channel is the easiest.

 

[rusticbob]

Very interesting reading fellas, kind of made me forget what the question was though.
I will look at the sight with a magnifying glass and try to determine which side looks best upon. I do have a micrometer and will try to get an accurate measurement. I was assuming this was a factory gun(Pedersoli),and all sights would be put in from the same side for ease of manufacture . But I cannot imagine the factory would put the sight on backwards, so somebody has probably already drifted it out once. It shoots good the way it is now, so maybe I should leave well enough alone and just shoot it. It’s a hunting gun, not trying to be period correct on this one.
Thanks for the help everyone, that’s what I like about this forum is the amount of knowledge that is available from members!

 

[PathfinderNC]

Yada, Yada, Yada,

What a bunch of discussion about such a minor thing, I am not sure any of the dovetails in any of my barrels are tapered, and I know the ones I filed in myself are only by mistake.

The only reason to push the sight in and out from the same side is that the (hopefully) softer sight will get sized a little by the harder barrel when it goes in for the first time. If you take it out the same way, it went in that's all the sizing that gets done.

If you take it out from the other side, now its sized all the way across.

I have measured factory dovetails many times and have failed to notice any difference across the slot.

Flame on guys

Bingo

 

[EC121]

You can also use a center punch to raise some burring on the barrel dovetail surface to tighten them.

Be very careful doing this. I used to have a rifle that someone had dimpled the dovetail. Because the metal was so thin under the dovetail, the person also dented the bore, . I would rather dimple the sight base or add some solder to it. After a mistake sights are easier to replace than barrels.

 

[Brokennock]

So, according to someone here, 18th century gun builders must have been a bunch of ham handed, ignorant, duffers,,,,,,,,,, turning out some of the most accurate weaponry of the time. Also some of the most wonderfully carved and engraved guns of any time. They could possibly measure anything accurately or consistently.

Just putting this out there.
The measuring caliper was invented by the Greeks in the 6th century. The Vernier Scale invented in 1631.
There are images available of calipers from the middle 18th century.

Of one can't look at period examples of well made guns and be amazed at the precision and craftsmanship they are made with, many can't duplicate it by hand today, then something is seriously wrong. Or, maybe one is just making excuses for their own sloppy work.

 

[Rob M.]

I do not know if this is the correct forum to ask, but I have a question on a dovetail rear sight on a Pedersoli rifle. Someone put the rear sight on backwards. Should not be a problem to just remove and replace correctly. My question is, should I remove from right to left, or left to right. Or does it matter?View attachment 139166

Doesnt matter the direction. Drift out with hammer band brass rod ... mark position first with pencil if its on target , help with re sight later .