Dovetails and breach plug

[Ok Bowhunter]

How hard is it to install the breach pulg and dovetails for the lugs and sights? this is my first build would it be better to have TOW do the work? Price of the work not really an issue.

Thanks

 

[smil]

If you are wondering how "hard it is", have TOTW do it. If you are wondering how to do it, then ask that. It is not hard but can be for a first-timer, I suppose.

I like to be a part of the whole build, myself.

 

[don hepler]

I've never installed a breech plug, however I was a Machinist for over 40 years. I don't think, I would have any trouble. But, unless you're used to working with metal, it might be more than you want to take on. Three things need to happen, the male threaded breech plug needs to be tight in the bottom of the barrel, while the shoulder needs to be tight against the back of the barrel, all while the flat on the breech plug, lines up with the flat on the barrel. If you're good with a file, and have patients, it can be done.
The dovetails can be done with files, but I cheat and use a Milling machine.

 

[Davemuzz]

When I built my pistol, I didn't find it all that difficult to install the dovetail for the rear sight. Here are some pictures that may help you if you choose to go that route. The pic's didn't show the "final" as after the last pic, the dovetail still needed some more depth, and the way I cut the dovetail was I took a very small three corner file and cut horizontal into the side and I also did some filing on the rear sight until I had them mach.

 

[Birddog6]

I would have them breech the barrel, do your own dovetails. If it is a swamped barrel, it will most likely come breeched anyway.

As for dovetails, do your own. Not a big deal & this way YOU decide where they go. Learning to do dovetails is easy. First one I did many moons ago took me an hour & I was deathly scared I was going to ruin the barrel. Now I can completely install 4 of them in 20 min.

Also when you get to the sight dovetails, you can take a refrigerator magnet & put on the barrel & put sight on magnet, slide the rear sight away from you til the sight picture is clear, then go 1" further away. Always do the sights Last, as if not you will be constantly snagging your hands during the build, on the dovetails or the sights if installed.

Oh, and you don't need a jig or whatever to cut dovetails. You need a scribe, Sharpie marker, 18 to 24 tooth hacksaw blade, 8" 3 corner metal file, & a little time.








Keith Lisle

 

[Swamp Rat]

First timer to first timer, I was scared to do mine, but using Mr. B's Video Had a good idea and the dove tails were a breeze. The breech I used had 8 sides to line up and was pain but came out good. I'd do it it again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ir8roD-cVg

and the dove tails http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioy86V-fd0o

 

[ohio ramrod]

Dove tails are simple enough for anyone with patience to do. Installing breech plugs requires working to tolerances of .001 of an inch. Not hard for machinists with a lathe and proper measuring tools. Difficult for some one with a drill, a tap and a file. :idunno:

 

[Swamp Rat]

Ohio and Bird dog are right, took me a LLLLOOOONNNNNGGGG time getting the pattend breech plug in using a file and inletting black. OH and it held me up doing mine finding a die for the threads to clean up the breech plug, which I think is half the cost of having them do it for you.

 

[Vaino]

I'm all for doing the following for experience's sake...breeching, bbl inletting and RR work, but once or twice is enough and then I have others do it.

Dovetails aren't that difficult and anyone building a MLer shoulkd be able to do it. Do the bbl lug dovetails first followed by the sight dovetails. A one safe edge triangular file and a hacksaw are the 2 main tools.

Sometimes even a parts set {kit} can be a challenge that requires all of a person's capabilities and having some work done by others isn't a bad idea. You'll have to decide this.....Fred

 

[tbarnes66]

As a relative newcomer myself, I would agree with what several have already mentioned. Unless you have a skill set in metal working, I would let them do the breech and do the dovetails yourself.

Again, depending on your skill set, you may want to look as some dovetailing tools and jigs that make it easier:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=14429
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=13083

Good Luck and enjoy the experience.

 

[Vaino]

By all means get a dovetail chisel if your intentions are more than one rifle. I use mine a lot. Asre the dovetailing jig.....probably more trouble than it's worth...especially w/ swamped bbls....IMO.....Fred

 

[54ball]

The breech can be complicated because your trying to accomplish three fits at once. You want the plug to seal against the breech face on the inside and also the tang of the plug to mate with the breech end of the barrel on the outside and the flats to line up. Also you want the mesh of these points to be just before the flats line up perfectly so you can "load the threads".

One advantage of a swamped barrel is they come with the breeches installed. But still, you are going to have to remove and install the plug several times during the build. It's always a good idea to double check the breech plug installation. Sometimes even the factory breeched barrels are not done correctly.

IMHO every builder needs to be educated on the process and have at least enough skill to double check and confirm a good breech seal even if done by the factory or supplier gunsmith.

Dove tails are scary for some reason but if you are careful and pay attention, they actually one of the simplest tasks in a build.

If you are going to buy a special tool, I recommend a good safesided triangle dovetail file sold by the likes of Midway and Brownells. These files are square and made for the job. A garden variety triangle file is most of the time tapered and the edges are not sharp enough to give that perfect cut. While the cheaper file can be used, it's just tricky.

A simple cold chisel is good for raising the dove tail.

The bottom line is study and research the building books.

 

[kaintuck]

If when you put the barrel lugs in...make sure you round off they're sharpe corners.....or else you WILL have blood,sweat, and tears on your build!

 

[galamb]

I have mixed feelings on giving advice on matters such as this.

I install my own plugs, cut my dovetails etc.

I had "limited" knowledge of metal the first time and was petrified that I would do something a) wrong - bad and b) dangerous - really bad.

My first breech plug must have took somewhat over 20 hours - accomplished over three long evenings - that was a few years back. A couple nights ago I timed in an Allen Ohio patent breech in somewhat under 45 minutes (think I stopped for a smoke) and I do my fitting with nothing more than a file, machine square and a digital caliper (ok, I've had some practice in between, but no "formal" training).

I would consider cutting dovetails to be equally challenging - you make a mistake there - take too much metal and you could have a dangerous barrel.

I guess my point is, if you feel confident to do "either" operation, you should be capable of both.

Yes, you have to time the breech plug and if you jigger up along the way you may end doing a whole lot more filing to get things lined back up again - or maybe you put the makers marks on an lower oblique flat instead of the bottom (which I do often - I'm not overly concerned about getting it on the bottom flat - just out of sight)

No "contrary to all the scary stories you may hear", unless you do something catastrophically insane with the breech plug it is not going to blow out on you or cause fire/brimstone to fall from heaven.

If you do "not" get the face of the plug snug against the bottom of the tap hole, such that there is a tiny gap (less then 1/32"), it is not "immediately unsafe" but it does allow fouling to collect which can cause premature rust OR it could cause some gas cutting to shorten the breeches life significantly.

(and for those of you who trust the barrel makers, I would still pull the plug and check. I have personally seen two "breeched barrels" from a rather prolific company (who's name might rhyme with Soul Train) where there was a near 1/16" gap between the face of the plug and the bottom of the tapped hole - can't help but wonder how many barrels are out there like that and are shooting fine with the owner unaware - and that is scarier than breeching your own barrel).

I guess I'm saying - if you want to learn how to do it, find some good instructions, take your time (even if that means a few days of picking at it) and go for it.

It really is one of those things that once you have done it once, the second time around you are better and don't have to chase Tums with Pepto shooters worrying that you have jiggered something up :grin: .

 

[OldJoe212]

You're not cutting the threads for the breechplug, so picture what you want and go sloooooowly. As far as the rear sight, cutting the dovetails is the same as the dovetails for the under-barrel lugs. Use those for practice. A slight mistake there will be covered by the wood. After you do one or two, you'll do the sight like a pro.
After doing this for nearly 40 years,confidence and attitude will take you a long way. Also, even mistakes will make you a better smith. I've over cut a dovetails before. I just made another sight with a longer base. :thumbsup:

 

[Ok Bowhunter]

I have someone nearby that can help. I think I will have the breach plug fitted and maybe the barrel crowned (just a little).

Thanks to everyone.

 

[Billnpatti]

Installation of the breach plug is not all that easy. You have to make absolutely sure that the threaded portion seats on the inside of the breach at the same time that the plug seats on the outside of the breach. All this has to happen just as the breach plug aligns with the top of the barrel. Let TOW do it.

Cutting the dovetails is a much easier task. It is just a matter of some careful hacksaw work followed by some filing with a triangular file. You will have to prepare the file by grinding off the teeth on one side. This will make a "safe" side that will not cut in that direction. If you have never done this, you need to get some instruction so that you will be able to cut the dovetails so that they will not be oversize nor too deep. But, if money is of no concern, I'd let TOW do that for you, too.

 

[Zonie]

On the first couple of "kit" guns I got from Pecatonica River I had them cut the sight dovetails and install the breech plug.

I figured the sight dovetails would be right out there in the open for the world to see and trying to get two different surfaces on the breech plug to be tight at the same time while trying to get the breech plug tang to align with the barrel flat all at the same time would be more challenge than I wanted.

I never regretted my decision.

In the following years I did learn to install breech plugs and to cut dovetails but to do a really good job of either task took more than a few trials and errors.

If you want to try to cut your own dovetails, buy the dovetail style underlugs that go on the bottom of the barrel.
Do your practicing there where a mistake will be hidden.

 

[F.G. Ford]

Remember to follow an order of assembly.
1st: The breach plug
2nd: The underlugs
3rd: The sights
Reason, the flats do not always line up where you think they will.
How do I know this :cursing:
Barrels today are much better than yesterday, but still check for run-out. They can be off center.
That being the case, you want the off center to be bottom preferably, but never to one side. The sights will never line up with in reason.
With a new modern barrel, off center is not too common, but check, and check again, and again, to be sure.
Do try and keep all dove tails away from the immediate chamber. Dove tails should be no thicker ( deeper ) than .085"
Good files make the job a lot easier.
Fred

 

[Pete G]

Dovetails are easy unless you put them in the SIDE of the barrel while your brother in law is talking to you.