Drams Equivalent

[roundball]

I'm creating a little smoothbore load data chart for myself based upon the drams equivalent of 27.34grns blackpowder equaling 1 dram.

I can't find a specifc "F" granulation reference but that would have to be referencing 2F, right?
(ie: not 1F, not 3F)

If so, a 3 dram charge would be 82grns of 2F blackpowder...(70grns 3F would be approximately the same)

 

[roundball]

I'm creating a little smoothbore load data chart for myself based upon the drams equivalent of 27.34grns blackpowder equaling 1 dram.

I'm puzzled as to why this was moved...it is clearly a smoothbore related question that is associated with velocity of a shot charge, in a category frequented by smoothbore shooters, who would be the most likely to see the post and know the answer to the question...I wasn't asking about powder as an accessory

 

[Dave Rosenthal]

I think that you're right, but I'll have to ask a friend of mine who loads 12 ga. BP birdshot rounds in Starline brass for his hammer gun. If I can reach him, he'll know the answer. In the meantime, maybe someone else can help.

One thing for sure...when that coach gun of his makes smoke, the BOOM shakes the ground! No wimp loads for my buddy Charlie!

And you're probably correct about the thread too .

Dave

 

[paulvallandigham]

Dr. Roundball: I am not sure I understand what you are wanting to do. Are you wanting data on Fg powder, giving velocities for various dram loads?

I don't have any Fg powder, or I could simply take my shotgun out and test some over a chronograph. If you use a Round ball in the 12 gauge, it should weigh close to 1 1/8 oz.( 492.2 grains) ( I can weigh it, if I had a round ball for a 12 gauge.) Using a standard sized round ball, you could test fire loads with 1, 2, 2.5, 2.75. 3, 3.25, 3.5, 3.75, and 4 drams to give a good scale of how the velocity changed and improved as you increased the amount of powder. If that is what you are trying to find out, and there is no other source of data available, I can try to pick up a can of Fg powder this September at Friendship, and do that work. You might want to check what the velocities are for that 20 gauge smoothie of yours, because I suspect that these powder charge deliver more velocity with lighter balls, and smaller diameter bores.

 

[Will Bison]

Three drams of anything weighs ----- three drams.

 

[ResearchPress]

Just to entertain you while you are waiting further discussion on this 'accessory' you might like to read Drams or Drachms? or 'Problems In The Measurement Of Gun Powder Charges Resulting From The Use Of Different Terminologies' on my web site.

David

 

[Claude Mathis]

I'm creating a little smoothbore load data chart for myself based upon the drams equivalent of 27.34grns blackpowder equaling 1 dram.

I'm puzzled as to why this was moved...it is clearly a smoothbore related question that is associated with velocity of a shot charge, in a category frequented by smoothbore shooters, who would be the most likely to see the post and know the answer to the question...I wasn't asking about powder as an accessory

Had I not stumbled on this thread, I would not have know there was a question being asked.

In the future, if you have a forum related question, please ask me or one of the Moderators, rather than posting it in public. The members can't answer these questions.

I'll move this thread to Smoothbore.

 

[roundball]

Three drams of anything weighs ----- three drams.

:grin: Cute, but the question is:

I can't find a specifc "F" granulation reference but that would have to be referencing 2F, right?
(ie: not 1F, not 3F)

 

[roundball]

Had I not stumbled on this thread, I would not have know there was a question being asked.

In the future, if you have a forum related question, please ask me or one of the Moderators, rather than posting it in public. The members can't answer these questions.

I'll move this thread to Smoothbore.

OK...I had no idea what moderator moved it, and to avoid bothering you with trivia, assumed whoever moved it would see my followup question...

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Drams and grains are both measures of weight, it does not matter whether one is talking Fg, FFg, FFFg or corn meal. Like the old gag, which is heavier, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Joe, ( and Will, and David, and Claude): Thanks for getting me around Roundball's question. The only written reference I know of for the coarser powder is " 1Fg, or Fg powder. "Fg" is what was stamped on the cans of powder my friend bought by the DuPont Co. that was making Goex at the time.

I just assumed Roundball knew that. I thought he was asking about what kind of comparative pressures and/or velocities you get when compared to 2Fg or3Fg powders. I base this " guess " in part because Roundball has made several references to the reduction of 3Fg powder to get the same POI as you would get using a similar amount of 2Fg.

 

Guys, RB is not asking hjow much a dram weighs or what kind of velocity is achieved with X drams. , On a box of modern smokeless shotshells, the powder charge is stated in "drams equivilent" meaning the smokeless charge is is equivilent to X drams of black powder, I believe the question is, is this velocity based on X drams of f, ff, fff black powder?. In other words, if you have a box of modern smokeless shotshells and on the box it states the powder charge as "2 1/2 drams equivilent", to duplicate this load with black, do you use 2 1/2 drams of f, ff, fff?.

 

[roundball]

Guys, RB is not asking hjow much a dram weighs or what kind of velocity is achieved with X drams. , On a box of modern smokeless shotshells, the powder charge is stated in "drams equivilent" meaning the smokeless charge is is equivilent to X drams of black powder, I believe the question is, is this velocity based on X drams of f, ff, fff black powder?. In other words, if you have a box of modern smokeless shotshells and on the box it states the powder charge as "2 1/2 drams equivilent", to duplicate this load with black, do you use 2 1/2 drams of f, ff, fff?.

You win the prize!
:hatsoff:

 

Guys, RB is not asking hjow much a dram weighs or what kind of velocity is achieved with X drams. , On a box of modern smokeless shotshells, the powder charge is stated in "drams equivilent" meaning the smokeless charge is is equivilent to X drams of black powder, I believe the question is, is this velocity based on X drams of f, ff, fff black powder?. In other words, if you have a box of modern smokeless shotshells and on the box it states the powder charge as "2 1/2 drams equivilent", to duplicate this load with black, do you use 2 1/2 drams of f, ff, fff?.

You win the prize!
:hatsoff:

Thank you......thank you very much :grin: .

 

[paulvallandigham]

Okay, then a dram, being a weight measure, is the same regardless of what powder is powdered. A pound of feathers weights the same as a pound of lead. They take up more volume than lead does, but they weigh the same.

I suspect that Dr. Roundball wants to know if there is a difference in " weight" depending on the dipper ( volume measure) used, and because the finer powders pack closer together, does it take less volume to get a dram of 3Fg as opposed to 1Fg powder. I am sure that a given volume of a fine grain powder weighs more than the same volume of a coarser grain powder. And, burn rates are different, with the finer powder creating more pressure in the chamber when fired, because it burns faster than the coarser powder would. Shooting round balls, you have the problem of a fairly low inertia simply because you have so little area of the ball actually in contact with the barrel to create friction. With slower burning powders, the gas is already pushing the ball down the barrel, lengthening the powder chamber , and lowering the pressure created before all the powder is burned, compared to what happens with finer grained powders.

In BP cartridge guns, there is another and similar problem because the primers they use today are so powerful that the gas from the primer can begin moving the bullet out of the cartridge case before the powder is fully ignited. For that reasons, single shot BP cartridge rifle shooters do NOT crimp their case rims into the bullet, and now, some of the shooters have begun to modify casings to take pistol primers, and are using small pistol primers to ignite their compacted 3Fg powder charges. All this gets the powder burning faster before the bullet begins to move. That leaves consistent chamber dimensions, consistent case tension holding the bullet, and therefore consistent release of the bullet into the barrel. SDV as low as 4 fps for a 10 shot string have been repeated.

 

[torn moc]

the modern shell box is referring to an equivalent of 2F powder...
at least I always THOUGHT so.....

a DRAM OF 4F WILL BE MUCH HOTTER THAN A DRAM OF 3F WHICH IS MUCH HOTTER THAN A DRAM OF 2F which is hotter than a dram of 1f......

your question has been answered...correct?

 

[roundball]

the modern shell box is referring to an equivalent of 2F powder...
at least I always THOUGHT so.....

I ASSUME so too...but you know what the word ASSUME means :grin:

a DRAM OF 4F WILL BE MUCH HOTTER THAN A DRAM OF 3F WHICH IS MUCH HOTTER THAN A DRAM OF 2F which is hotter than a dram of 1f......

Right, everybody knows that :wink:

your question has been answered...correct?

No...can't find a reference that clarifies that the dram equivalent referenced with shotshells is based upon a dram of 2F...vs. a dram of 3F, or 1F or 4F, etc, etc.

 

[Runner]

I understood you from the beginning, but I am not sure. I seem to remember that shotgun loads were 1f, but that is a long time ago.

 

[roundball]

Found a credible source...1975 Lyman Blackpowder Handbook shows FFg as the drams reference.
:thumbsup:
DRAM REFERENCE is for FFg (2F) per 1975 Lyman Black Powder Handbook

One Dram = 27.34 grains of 2F black powder

DRAM REFERENCE EXAMPLES:
2+1/2 Drams = 68grns FFg (-10% = 61grns 3F)
2+3/4 Drams = 75grns FFg (-10% = 68grns 3F)
3 Drams = 82grns FFg (-10% = 74grns 3F)
3+1/4 Drams = 89grns FFg (-10% = 81grns 3F)

 

[torn moc]

thats what I said...2F