Driving the Ball Home?

[Carl Fowler III]

Opposite of short starting a ball where the pressure spikes to dangerous levels, what does packing the ball harder into the powder ( compressing powder ) do to the charge?

I've always seen shooters using wooden ramrods push the ball to the powder and then drop the rod into the barrel until it bounce's back...figured this was to get a consistent seating of the ball for accuracy sake? I, using a brass ramrod don't have this luxury but pushing the ball onto the powder I then lift the rod maybe 2 inches and let it hit the ball to seat it better...not enough I believe to deform the ball but just that little extra like the guys with wooded ramrods do to theirs!

Anyway, what's the consensus of ye on this procedure and what does the compressed powder do to a load? :bow:

 

[Little Wattsy]

To a degree compressed should increase pressure (we see modern ML guns shooting "pellets") as about a maximum.
Real effect is like shooting freethows in basketball, just do it the same every time so you have a consistant pressure for consistant accuracy...

 

[Billnpatti]

George shared this interesting bit of literature but I could find nothing that answered your question. Even so, it is interesting reading providing you have taken math through calculus. Here it is for your consideration: http://www.arc.id.au/RobinsOnBallistics.html
Thank George.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

George shared this interesting bit of literature but I could find nothing that answered your question. Even so, it is interesting reading providing you have taken math through calculus. Here it is for your consideration: http://www.arc.id.au/RobinsOnBallistics.html
Thank George.

I did read thru all of the data and couldn't find anything relating to pressure variance from compressing the powder charge...very good reading though, thank you for the site! Amazing what mathematicians could do back in the days! :hmm:

 

[FishDFly]

"I've always seen shooters using wooden ramrods push the ball to the powder and then drop the rod into the barrel until it bounce's back...figured this was to get a consistent seating of the ball for accuracy sake? I, using a brass ramrod don't have this luxury but pushing the ball onto the powder I then lift the rod maybe 2 inches and let it hit the ball to seat it better"

How is dropping your brass rad rod going to seat the ball better than using the muscles in your arms and shoulders and adding in the weight of the ramrod?

If you have a small amount of pressure on the ball, barely seating it on the powder (it will shoot low) and increasing the pressure on the ball a lot ( it will shoot high).

Wattsy has the answer, "To a degree compressed should increase pressure (we see modern ML guns shooting "pellets") as about a maximum.
Real effect is like shooting free throws in basketball, just do it the same every time so you have a consistent pressure for consistent accuracy...

I had a friend who practiced pushing down on his ram rod while it was on a bathroom scale. He practiced until he had the same pressure each time and he did this with his eyes closed and then would check for consistency after opening his eyes.

 

[George T.]

I believe that it is important to do what ever you decide on as near the same as you can every time. I do not think that this is a pressure issue but a standard routine breeds accuracy issue.

I did a lot of reading on this issue thru web searches and I ran accross some very interesting reading. One was that velocity was kept closer with heavy pressure but moderate seating produced the beast accuracy. To me thatsays that at some point the ball was being deformed enough to eleminate the advantage that the velocity should have given you. I do not hammer the ball once down but I do patch tight enough that seating requires quite a bit of pressure. I try my best to do this the same way each and every time. This why I wipe the bore between shots. Geo. T.

 

[crockett]

You want the ball on the powder but beyond that there's no benefit to further compression. The dropping ramrod, some guys think if the ramrod bounces back up that it means the ball is firmly on the powder- never did that myself. I mark the ramrod and push down until reaching that mark.

 

[FishDFly]

I do not hammer the ball once down but I do patch tight enough that seating requires quite a bit of pressure. I try my best to do this the same way each and every time. This why I wipe the bore between shots. Geo. T.
\
Back to consistency and consistency, consistency is what works, nothing else.

 

[FishDFly]

"I mark the ramrod and push down until reaching that mark."

Back to consistency, consistency, the same way each time, that is what works.

ISO 9001, conformance to standards. If we could only get Lyman GPR's builder to follow ISO 9001.

 

[Rifleman1776]

beast accuracy.

:shocked2: Have you been watching me shoot? :wink:

 

[Spikebuck]

Don't know personally, but I think I've read on this forum that with a flintlock you do not want to compress the powder significantly as the oxygen inbetween grains of powder helps the burn (even though there is oxygen in the powder itself). Unlike a percussion that forces a hot flame through the powder charge. :idunno:

Never did the bouncing ramrod thing....If it were that hard to seat the ball that last little bit, it's hard to believe that bouncing the RR on it is going to get the job done. I just seat to the mark on the RR which means I should be about as consistent as I can get.

 

[Billnpatti]

My range rod is made of a solid brass rod and I put an old brass doorknob on the end to be a bit more gentle on my hand. The large smooth surface of the door knob gives me a good bit more feel for how much pressure I am putting on the ball when I seat it. I use a scratch mark on the rod to tell me when the ball is all the way down. This arrangement gives me an excellent feel for how much pressure I have used to seat the ball on the powder.

I have looked in the literature that I have and have found nothing on the effect of various amounts of pressure on a seated ball. I am pretty sure that there is an effect but I don't know what it is. I just make sure that my pressure on the ball is the same every time.

 

[bpd303]

When I started in muzzleloading over 50 years ago an old timer (long gone) advised me to tap the barrel with the palm of my hand to settle the charge then set the ball with just enough pressure to contact the powder without crushing it.Seems to have worked for me all these years. Goes to consistency I guess or maybe it's just ritual.

 

[M. De Land]

I don't do it but think marking the ram rod is a good idea for consistency's sake.
As far as compression is concerned only about the first third to half of the column is actually compressed to any great degree as I found out by compressing powder in clear plastic tubing.
Black powder cartridge shooting is all about various degrees of mechanical die compression along with drop tubing and some even vibrate.
One would assume the whole column is equally compressed but nothing could be further from the truth even with die compression.
Drop tubing seems to have the best effect and is the most efficient way of powder settling. Many long rang muzzle loading competitors use the technique in there guns. MD

 

[hanshi]

I confess ignorance on the specifics of all this but do have my own seating method. I don't "bounce" the rod when loading. What I do is seat the prb firmly down on the powder with (what is probably modest compression) some "scrunch". I normally will then give the prb a couple of good taps with the rod. The idea is to have the same (as possible) amount of compression each shot. Some do more; some do less. I don't think it matters for the most part just as long as everything is fairly consistent.

I patch pretty tight but not so tight that I can't safely use the wood, under barrel rod. Even at the range I use the wood rod about half the time. In the woods the ub rod is ALL I use.

 

[54ball]

What has not been mentioned is the difference in flint vs percussion.

In flint I've always seated with a light touch. The ball is rammed down until it's on the charge. I may give it a tap with the rod just to make sure its past the crud ring on follow up shots. I was taught that flinters do better with a lighter seat. This leaves air between the grains.
One way to look at it, due to the open vent and nature of ignition, flinters burn powder. A light seat on the ball premotes burning.

On percussion you can seat the ball firmer. Some target shooters will really try to compress the powder under the ball. It may be easier to be consistant by really compressing the charge.
One way to look at it, in the closed percussion system the powder is detonated instead of "burned".
Whatever you shoot or however you seat, be consistant.

 

[Col. Batguano]

Please elaborate on the difference between detonation and burning. BP is considered an explosive by BATF, and smokeless is not.

 

[hanshi]

Black powder and smokeless CAN'T detonate. Only high explosives do that. Any detonation of powder in a firearm would take out the entire firing line; but unless you use c-4 as a propellant, it won't happen.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Hi, my name is Tom,

I shoot flint and am a ramrod bouncer.

O' the horrors of it all.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Hi, my name is Tom,

I shoot flint and am a ramrod bouncer.

O' the horrors of it all.

Tom, I see you too suffer from BOUNCILISM disease! Do you attend one of the local chapter's? We are trying to spread the word...it starts with just one little tap, but soon one tap isn't enough to satisfy our desires...then before we realise it , we are doing 3 or 4 taps at one time...stay the course brother, one tap free day at a time! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: