Driving the Ball Home?

[Rifleman1776]

Hi, my name is Tom,

I shoot flint and am a ramrod bouncer.

O' the horrors of it all.

Hello, Tom.
Now, proceed to step 2.

 

[crockett]

Col. B- I've never tried it but I've seen smokeless powder ignited outside of the gun and it just burns, the black blows up as I understand it.
On the ramrod mark, I should note that if you do this after the first shot you might push some fouling down the bore as you reload and the mark might be just a tad high even when the ball is firmly on the powder.

 

[Col. Batguano]

I've seen the same thing, regardless of powder. Ignition of bp happens much faster. I was asking if there was an exact legal definition that delineated the break-point. Gasoline vapors, grain, and coal dust are explosive in nature too. Whether they are actually legally defined or classified that way by BATF is another matter.

Sort of a "what the definition of "is" is thing.

 

[spitdog]

I have always tap the butt on the ground to settle the powder and then load the ball and 3 or 4 pushes on the ram rod until the ball is snug.

My ramrod is marked but that is just to let me know if it's loaded or not incase I get distracted and forget where I was in the loading process.

Never do I check the mark on the ramrod to make sure the ball is seated at a standard distance. It's all in the routine.

 

[daniel collums]

it might be just to much shooting with out ear plugs but it seems like the shot has more of a cracking sound when someone packs the manure out of a load. when i load i pour the powder and tap the side at the base of the barrel then use a short starter to start the ball then a wood ramrod with my hands close to the muzzle then after its close to the bottom i place a thick leather palm patch over the rod end and push it to a dead stop.no pounding or bouncing the ramrod on the ball. one of my friends always pours his powder then uses his ramrod to pack the powder down then packs the ball till the rod bounces,you would swear his bullet would be flat when it comes out but his shots are always on target.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Hi, my name is Tom,

I shoot flint and am a ramrod bouncer.

O' the horrors of it all.

Tom, I see you too suffer from BOUNCILISM disease! Do you attend one of the local chapter's? We are trying to spread the word...it starts with just one little tap, but soon one tap isn't enough to satisfy our desires...then before we realise it , we are doing 3 or 4 taps at one time...stay the course brother, one tap free day at a time! :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Never gonna happen, I attend the meetings for the coffee and cookies only, nobody likes a quitter.
:blah:

I started out using a delrin rod that I packed along on the trail, used it to gently nudge the ball down to lightly kiss the powder.

That got old fast so I cut the rod down and tapered it to fit the pipes and replaced the wood rod, that made the delrin rod short so that I cannot comfortably seat the ball without strain so I bounce till the rod pops up.

I have no issues with ignition in my flinter, I hit most everything I shoot at and have taken my fair share of top honors, so I say bounce away, bounce away all.
:hmm:

 

[fleener]

ATF does not classify explosives, DOT does. All new explosives have to be approved and classified by the USDOT if it is going to be transported in commerce.

Black powder is a 1.1D. 1.1 is the highest risk and 1.6 is the lowest.

49CFR 173.50

Division 1.1 consists of explosives that have a mass explosion hazard. A mass explosion is one which affects almost the entire load instantaneously.

Black powder is at the lower end of a 1.1 explosive. DOT allows black powder for sporting arms to be reclassified to a 4.1 flammable solid if in one pound packages, not to exceed 25 lbs per outer container.

Detonation vs deflagration

the short readers digest answer is that detonation is almost instantly and the shock wave is faster than the speed of sound, delfagration is a rapid burn form particle to particle and can appear to be rapid like a detonation, the shock wave is slower than the speed of sound. A dust explosion is deflagration.

fleener

 

[tenngun]

Hey Tom I too am a boncer,I don't throw it down just let it fall a few inchs.I don't mark the rod in case I get alittle too much or to little charge.I never had ignition poblems.I am unrepentant and cant make to the B.A (boncers anynominous)but I blow down barrels tween shots use precut patchs and short starters.I'm sure hell is waiting,just hope c.s lewis was right and not dante :rotf:

 

[fleener]

obturation will occure to a certain extent when the ball is fired. So the little beating you do on it will it really make a difference? For those that cast what about that sprue?

I got to admit I will give a round ball a few good taps with my range rod. But you got to ask yourself why? and if why, are you causing any harm?

When I am shooting my long range ML you will never catch me tapping my bullet with my range rod, and I only use very light presure. But this bullet is not as tight as a patched round ball and the bore is clean. If I deform the nose and cause it to have a defect that is 1 MOA, that is 10" at 1,000 yards.

With a round ball you dont have to be that careful. Most shooters off hand at 100 yards will strugle to shoot a 10" 5 shot group. Sure you can do better, I have several times, but if you shot 10 groups of 5 at 100 yards what do you think your average span will be?

So if your little beating on the ball causes it to drift off 1 MOA or even 2 MOA that is not very noticable for the average round ball shooter. I dont know of any round ball shooter that can shoot a 5 shot 2 MOA group at 100 yards twice in a row, off hand.

I dont cast round balls, one reason is that I dont want the sprue to have an impact on my shooting, plus it is not worth my time. I would think that the sprue will have more affect of the flight of the ball than the a few good taps from the rod.

fleener

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

If your really interested in what has the greatest effect on accuracy then I recommend The Bullets Flight by F.W. Mann, one of the most detailed studies pertaining to accuracy.

Mash the nose all you want and there is no deleterious effects, the base of the projectile however is another story.

The information is out there that puts the old wives tales to rest.
:hmm:

 

[M. De Land]

It's not a wives tail Tom when it comes to long range because nose deformation changes BC and
BC alteration at 1K greatly effects elevation change shot to shot. MD

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

With the particular muzzleloaders we use, within the timeframe we are using them it is a wives tale.

We have no reason to care if there is wobble when the ball becomes sub-sonic, after all its just a ball. The length of the ogive or nose deformation means nothing to the roundball/conical shooter, 250 yards is about the max effective target range and it had best be a sizeable target at that, 1000 yard discussions really have no substance in this realm.

That being said, in the whole scheme of things you cannot do enough damage to the nose of a ball upon seating to cause it to fly off target, human error will be the culprit here.

:v

 

[M. De Land]

I was referring to your last sentence about the nose and the base of a projectile. In my mind these are bullet terms not ball terms.MD

 

[Billnpatti]

When a thing such as smokeless or black powder burns, it does so in a much slower form of combustion than when something explodes. Burning falls into the category called deflagration while an explosion is in a category called detonation. Both produce exothermic shock or pressure waves. The difference is that in deflagration, the exothermic shock wave is subsonic while in detonation (explosion) the exothermic shock wave is supersonic.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Excuse my ignorance on this subject, but I've always thought an explosion took place when pressure built up in a confined space beyond the integrity or fatigue level of the enclosed structure? :hmm:

 

[nkbj]

If your really interested in what has the greatest effect on accuracy then I recommend The Bullets Flight by F.W. Mann, one of the most detailed studies pertaining to accuracy.

Mash the nose all you want and there is no deleterious effects, the base of the projectile however is another story.

The information is out there that puts the old wives tales to rest.
:hmm:

If you shoot bullets at distance then the importance of the base slaps you right 'tween the running lights pretty darn quick. The lovely happenstance of a smooth round bottom makes patched ball sooo much easier to work with.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

I was referring to your last sentence about the nose and the base of a projectile. In my mind these are bullet terms not ball terms.MD

Yup I do understand, the fact that I cast my own ball does give me a nose (sprue end) and a base.

I also realize that it's a play on the words as this discussion can be interpreted many ways.
:idunno:

 

[M. De Land]

Does accuracy suffer if you have a sprued ball and shoot it sprue down. MD

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

That is a good question, I do know that it is near impossible to position the sprue in the same position every time when you cannot see it.

Having read the above mentioned reference I automatically positioned sprue up.

I do plan on some range work this summer providing time permits, I'll try to work in a little test with sprue down.

 

[Rat Trapper]

I see no benefit to bouncing the rod on top of the ball! Once the ball is seated firmly on top of the powder that is as far as the ball is going to go down. So bouncing the rod is just a waste of time and effort. That plus it will do nothing that will increase the accuracy of the rifle.