dueling pistols

[jesse james]

OK fellas , here's one for ya. Can't post a picture , so nere goes! Just picked up a pair of display cased dueling pistols yesterday . Bbls. marked 44 cal. , but mike out 45 . Percussion , bbls are 9 in. , fluted , with roll engraving at the muzzle and breech.patent hooked breech,highly polished in the white.Locks are also in the white and engraved.Adjustable Vee rear sight that screws up, out of the tang . Half stock[ no ramrod]with brass butt cap , brass trigger guard with single trigger. Both are cased in a Large red lined wood case , which includes a small square head wood hammer[ball starter?] wood handle nipple wrench , 2 pc. wood cap box[round] , small german silver flask ,steel bullet mound , one wooden ram rod with brass jag , and a steel ram rod[octagon to round with handle] a brass bore brush , and brass key for the case.Case appears to be mahogany , with brass wire trim , and a brass shield inlayed in the lid.Large case , approx 12"x18" Makers mark is R.S in an oval. Although marked made in spain, guns are very well made , with excellent fit and finish , and appear to be quite shootable , though these appear to have never been fired. Just trying to figure out who made them ,and when?Can"t tell the age , but case looks like it has been around for a while . Picked them up for a song . Thanks in advance for any info. Jerry in Fl.

 

[Blizzard of '93]

Can't provide any info except lucky U. Rifled barrels? And a slug mold or ball?

 

[faw3]

Adjustable Vee rear sight , that is different most came smooth bore, front sight (these are just the few Ive seen and a book or two about them) will really like to see pics of them. Sounds like you got a really good deal on them. :grin: . Fred :hatsoff:

 

[jesse james]

Rifled Bbls. , 8 equal land & groove .010 deep . Mould is ball Rear sight is a vee that is recessed into the tang [approx. 1/4 wide] . There is a screw just forward of the tang bolt , that when turned , raises the sight up from inside the tang![COOL] .Front sight is on a VERY narrow dove tail that can be drifted . Jerry

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

LePage target pistols, maybe?

 

[mec]

Pedersoli of Italy makes a Lepage and so does somebody else-not sure what country. Your rear sight describes just like the one on the pedersoli lepage.

 

[robinghewitt]

Duelling pistols with rifled barrels and sights :shocked2:

Sounds dashed unsporting :rotf:

 

[Norskie]

That's what the French thought, but our Irish and British ancestors developed accurate rifled pistols any way. Eventually these guns had a hand in cutting down the bloodshed, as fellows practiced on targets until they gained reputations as dead shots. If you knew a man could punch out the center of a paper target, would you challenge him? After a while the target shooting became a sport in its own right, of course.

 

[davy]

That's what the French thought, but our Irish and British ancestors developed accurate rifled pistols any way. Eventually these guns had a hand in cutting down the bloodshed, as fellows practiced on targets until they gained reputations as dead shots. If you knew a man could punch out the center of a paper target, would you challenge him? After a while the target shooting became a sport in its own right, of course.

Well gosh ... where do you think man-sized silhouett targets came from? :hmm: :shocked2: :thumbsup:


Davy

 

[Okwaho]

Duelling pistols with rifled barrels and sights :shocked2:

Sounds dashed unsporting :rotf:

I agree and since I do not recall seeing in the original post any mention of rifling only fluting,I wonder where the notion of these guns being rifled came from. They are doubtless a nice pair of pistols encased for appearance but dueling pistols they are not. Dueling pistols which reached their zenith in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were made according to one of the codes duello. These pistols were normally about .50 cal. with a smooth bore,no sights, and a prescribed poundage of trigger pull.They were made by some of the best gunsmiths and are found in finely equipped casings.
It has become popular and romantic to describe any pair of pistols especially cased pairs as duelling pistols when in fact,as in the present case,they are merely cased pistols of the belt pistol variety.Duelling pistols were found in both flintlock and percussion and represented the finest in pistol manufacture.I noticed that the barrels were fluted but I seriously doubt any duelling pistols would have had fluted barrels which would have been prohibited as giving an undue and improper advantage to the owner of the fluted pistols.Dueling was the ultimate act of defending one's honor against character attack either real or perceived and any act which would have given an undue advantage to one of the duelists would have been considered dishonorable and would have result in extreme penalties.
Tom Patton

 

[Okwaho]

That's what the French thought, but our Irish and British ancestors developed accurate rifled pistols any way. Eventually these guns had a hand in cutting down the bloodshed, as fellows practiced on targets until they gained reputations as dead shots. If you knew a man could punch out the center of a paper target, would you challenge him? After a while the target shooting became a sport in its own right, of course.

Actually rifling was a German invention and the earliest American pistols with rifling originated in Pennsylvania in the form of Kentucky pistols produced by gunsmiths trained in the central European areas of Germany and Switzerland.Early English,Irish,and French pistols were smoothbored as was the tradition in those countries.
Tom Patton

 

[faw3]

That was my point, dont know how I saw rifled?? :youcrazy: As Davy will tell ya we wen from hand guns to the Bowie knife, more sporting and all that. :rotf: Fred :hatsoff:

 

[TFoley]

Early English,Irish,and French pistols were smoothbored as was the tradition in those countries. Tom Patton

Mr Patton - please note that the French gun-makers had a habit of actually rifling the barrels from the breech up to a point about halfway up the bore in an attempt to gain a measure of accuracy that was undetectable to the necessarily quick inspection of the seconds who simply looked into themuzzle and saw a smooth bore.

This sneaky form of rifling is called 'French rifling' in their 'honour'. :hmm:

tac

 

[Okwaho]

Early English,Irish,and French pistols were smoothbored as was the tradition in those countries. Tom Patton

Mr Patton - please note that the French gun-makers had a habit of actually rifling the barrels from the breech up to a point about halfway up the bore in an attempt to gain a measure of accuracy that was undetectable to the necessarily quick inspection of the seconds who simply looked into themuzzle and saw a smooth bore.

This sneaky form of rifling is called 'French rifling' in their 'honour'. :hmm:

tac

There was a "French rifling system" designed apparently by Captain Claude Etienne Minie{inventor of the bullet of the same name}about 1847 for use in heavy ordnance and there is quite a bit of information about this type of rifling in connection with heavy ordnance. I am unable to find any references to such rifling used in small arms either civilian or military. I did find a reference to a message board wherein the writer discusses his having considered such rifling as a modification on a contemporary gun.Rifling was not commonly found in 18th century French guns although there were some rifled guns known to have been carried by cavalry and some Royal elite units under Louis XIV and XV.

I will look foward to seeing any solid documentation as to the practice of partial rifling of dueling pistols by French gunsmiths or by any makers of dueling pistols.Rifling of small arms was not a part of early English and French gun making tradition with the exceptions noted above.As far as I can determine "French rifling" was an ordnance feature which appeared Ca. 1847 in France. I am unsure of its adoption by other countries but there is a wealth of information on ordnance rifling available.
Tom Patton

 

[mec]

You hear about "scratch rifling" which consisted of shallow grooves. The reference on dueling pistols I have came from Gun Digest 1964 and the author said that large martial caliber smooth bores were generally used in England while Continentals would duel with set triggers and rifled bores. The only reference I found to the subject of rifled vs smooth bores seems to contridict this. It was in the french code that indicated that "smooth bore is preferred..." LePage had cased sets with rifled target barrels and smooth bore barreld quickly interechangeable due to the hooked breach.

In any case Duelers and Target pistols seem to be close enough as to make no difference or at least to cause quite a bit of confusion.

 

[faw3]

Ive got a copy around here of the old Duelling pistols rules and the idea was to draw first blood not out right kill, one American stateman pistol just 10 yrs ago while being cleaned up was found to have a "trick set trigger" think his name was Hamilton as on the 10 bill. Fred :hatsoff: If you ever geet the chance see the knife fights that fighters wear a mask with just parts of cheak show for cutting and fighters are 2 ft away with knife held at eye level. Thats now days.

 

[tamara]

If you ever geet the chance see the knife fights that fighters wear a mask with just parts of cheak show for cutting and fighters are 2 ft away with knife held at eye level. Thats now days.

:shocked2: Link?

 

[jaxenro]

I think he means this:
[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing[/url]

which is a variation of the stylized fencing or dueling practiced in German Universities where they got all those facial scars from.

 

[tamara]

Thanks for the link. I'm fascinated by stuff like that. Some things people will do in the name of honor seems crazy, but also rather nostalgic and romantic, since there seems to be a general lack of honor these days.

 

True dueling pistols don't have rear sights, let alone (shudder) adjustable rear sights. The better quality ones usually have tapered barrels with the bore parallel to the top flat. Pistols with rear sights are target pistols, sometimes referred to as parlor pistols.