Duplex loads of BP and fake?

[cas]

My first post after being a now and again lurker.

I'm about to start with my first flintlock, only real BP is a bit of a problem. To get it I have to mail order lots of it, or drive two states away and buy it. Neither of which I'm fond of doing. I can/do buy it when I happen to be there, but since it's not often, I don't make it a habit of using it. I DO use LOTS of APP and 777 in a number if different firearms. I get it for cost at work so it's much cheaper than mail ordered BP.

So... I was wondering about making my small supply of BP last longer by only using it for the pan and as a primer for a mostly FakeBP load. Say 10grs of FF BP and the rest APP. (or whatever works out best)

Just wondering if anyone does it, or has done it. Does it work or not, "Oh lord, don't do that!' etc.

 

[Tracy]

I dont shoot flintlocks but I think you need to ase a small charge of black to get consistant ign.Just remember to count as part of the main charge example if you normally shoot an 80 grain charge of APP you will use 10 grns.black 70 grns App.I have heard some of the boys say this works pretty good.I am sure some of the flintlock guys will come along and help you out.If they tell you different than me take their advice they know a lot more than I do.Bye the way welcome to yhe forum.

 

[Russianblood]

My first post after being a now and again lurker.

I'm about to start with my first flintlock, only real BP is a bit of a problem. To get it I have to mail order lots of it, or drive two states away and buy it. Neither of which I'm fond of doing. I can/do buy it when I happen to be there, but since it's not often, I don't make it a habit of using it. I DO use LOTS of APP and 777 in a number if different firearms. I get it for cost at work so it's much cheaper than mail ordered BP.

So... I was wondering about making my small supply of BP last longer by only using it for the pan and as a primer for a mostly FakeBP load. Say 10grs of FF BP and the rest APP. (or whatever works out best)

Just wondering if anyone does it, or has done it. Does it work or not, "Oh lord, don't do that!' etc.

Using the real BP in the pan and a small charge in the barrel will allow you to use the subs in your flintlock. I think 777 even states that on their bottle.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I've shot Pyrodex in flint and percussion guns with a "kicker" charge of 12 grains 3f black and have gotten good accuracy but I stayed well below maximum loads. There really is no data for mixed loads and since the subs do not always behave like real black powder I would be especially cautious with the 777, it is well known to be rather "touchy" stuff even when used alone, who knows what it may do if ignited by a small charge of black.

 

[roundball]

My first post after being a now and again lurker.

I'm about to start with my first flintlock, only real BP is a bit of a problem. To get it I have to mail order lots of it, or drive two states away and buy it. Neither of which I'm fond of doing. I can/do buy it when I happen to be there, but since it's not often, I don't make it a habit of using it. I DO use LOTS of APP and 777 in a number if different firearms. I get it for cost at work so it's much cheaper than mail ordered BP.

So... I was wondering about making my small supply of BP last longer by only using it for the pan and as a primer for a mostly FakeBP load. Say 10grs of FF BP and the rest APP. (or whatever works out best)

Just wondering if anyone does it, or has done it. Does it work or not, "Oh lord, don't do that!' etc.

I used "layered charges" of powder when I switched from caplocks to Flintlocks to use up some Pyrodex.

20grn Goex 3F downbore first, then 30/40/50/etc grns of Pyrodex RS on top, worked perfectly....accurate, consistent, etc.

I picked up a couple hundred free 35mm film canisters at photos shops, premeasured 50 of each powder charge, kept them labeled and separated in large Ziploc bags, worked like a charm.

You have to make two separate "pour" activities but in no time it becomes so routnine it's just a few seconds...used up 4-5 pounds of Pyrodex RS that way.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you consider the cost of the products you say you use, when compared to what Black Powder will cost, even if you buy it in small lot quantities from Powder Inc, or Graf and Sons, I can't see how you can justify messing around with two different powders going down the same barrel, unless you are trying to use up a supply of substitute powder and don't have another gun that will use it.

Flintlocks work with Black Powder. Can you work up a combination load os BP and a Sub, like 777? Yes, of course, but as others have indicated, it can be tricky and you want to stay well below maximum loads. I suspect that is not on your agenda, as most people new to Black Powder guns want to see just how much powder they can burn in their guns. It takes some time to get over all that machismo stuff, and then learn that flintlocks don't really work best that way. You can do certain things with a percussion ignition system that more closely approximate what you might be used to shooting in a cartridge gun, but those rules don't work with flintlocks.

Welcome to the world of flintlocks. The fun part of shooting flint is that it does use a different set of rules, and when you master them, you surprise the heck out of yourself, and others, too. There is an amazing sense of satisfaction that you can get from using flintlocks for hunting game, or winning target matches that you won't experience with any other kind of firearm.

 

[rickystl]

I've heard that Pinicle (spelling?) has a new substitute that is available in 3F and 4F and loads volumne for volumne. Anyone know if this is true?

 

[jboyer]

I tried some Goex Pinnacle 3F and EZ Loads. They both worked fine in my inline. It seemed to burn about like Pyrodex RS to me and not any cleaner. I tried the Pinnacle 3F in my flinlock with poor success. I used BP 4F in the pan and Pinnacle 3F in the barrel. It would fire but was very slow. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...boom. BP in the pan and BP down the barrel gives me very good ignition. I can get BP at a local gun shop but they hadn't heard of Pinnacle. I picked the Pinnacle up at Gander Mountain.

On the Pinnacle bottle, it says something to the affect the Pinnacle is a cooperative effort of Goex and APP. The EZ loads are a small brick that look very similar to what Jim Shockey is promoting.
[url] www.goexpowder.com/product-pinnacle.html[/url]

Jeff

 

[paulvallandigham]

/So far, the reports from the field on Pinnacle are not that good. Goex told me that they have changed the formula for that powder recently, so that it ignites at a lower temperature, and CAN be used in Flintlocks.

What we don't know from reports is whether the shooter was using the earlier version of the powder or this latest version. i suggest you contact Goex Directly to find out what the truth is, and then find out when the change occurred, so you can check the lot number on the can of powder you have, or intend to buy to determine if its the old or new stuff! Perhaps Goex, or someone else who already has this information will post the lot number change here.

 

[cowpoke1955]

Hi cas,
Try Powder Inc. You can order 5, 10, 25 or 50 pound lots. Here is their link.[url] http://www.powderinc.com/index.html[/url]

 

[rickystl]

Thanks, Paul. :hatsoff:

 

[Dphar]

My first post after being a now and again lurker.

I'm about to start with my first flintlock, only real BP is a bit of a problem. To get it I have to mail order lots of it, or drive two states away and buy it. Neither of which I'm fond of doing. I can/do buy it when I happen to be there, but since it's not often, I don't make it a habit of using it. I DO use LOTS of APP and 777 in a number if different firearms. I get it for cost at work so it's much cheaper than mail ordered BP.

So... I was wondering about making my small supply of BP last longer by only using it for the pan and as a primer for a mostly FakeBP load. Say 10grs of FF BP and the rest APP. (or whatever works out best)

Just wondering if anyone does it, or has done it. Does it work or not, "Oh lord, don't do that!' etc.

The problem is this. The various "replica" powders are not BP. Nor do they act like it in use. While I have never heard of anyone blowing up a ML with the stuff mixing propellants is a really bad idea in general. I think you will find the manufacturers don't recommend this either.
I also do not care for the rather aggressive (compared to BP) corrosive properties of some of them.
Its easier to use BP. If you know several shooters pool an order and get some powder by the case then split it. Its not as dangerous as gasoline anyway.
Dan

 

[roundball]

"...I think you will find the manufacturers don't recommend this either..."

Actually, all the manufacturers do indeed recommend this...it's printed right on the instruction labels on their powder containers to consider using a small igniter charge of real BP downbore first.

The notion of not mixing powders has it's roots in the smokeless powder world where devastating results can occur

 

[Mad Monk]

Paul,

Pinnacle is little more than APP with some decent charcoal added. Only a tiny bit of charcoal. The charcoal is what lowers the ignition temperature of the basic APP to that of the Pinnacle.

I was wondering when I would see something like I see in this thread.

APP uses ball mills to grind the ingredients and blend them. The entire ascorbic acid powder group did not understand that ingredient particle size in the ascorbic acid powders is almost as critical as that seen in black powder.

Using a ball mill to grind the ingredient introduces a degree of variability not seen in most black powder production. They don't measure ingredient particle size so they have no way of knowing how much batch to batch deviation they get in the finished product.

In general these outfits deal with shooters who are not up to target shooters in how picky they get over propellant performance. With the exception of the $30 per pound Black Mag 3, the other ascorbic acid based powders are a good deal weaker than black powder.

I am reminded of one guy on another message board. When somebody commented that Clean Shot was weak in the gun the guy commented that he shot a deer with it so the other guy was full of you know what. Then he posted that he shot the deer at a distance of about 40 feet!

I was sent some of the first Pinnacle GOEX marketed. I checked it against their regular black powder. The Pinnacle, like the APP, was a good bit slower than black powder.

When I looked at the Pinnacle and the APP I figured it was not worth looking at lot to lot variability in them. Cabelas at Hamburg gets $19.99 per pound for APP. I figured why should I spend two or three hundred dollars of my money to look at lot to lot variation in those powders and go through trying to explain it on message boards and deal with some of the rubes who are in love with it.
If I want that kind of abuse I'll get the wife a whip to go with her leather Indian dress!

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mad Monk: Thank you so much for that contribution. I certainly understand your reluctance to spend money doing testing that won't be paid attention to by the people who need to pay attention the most! Since people have reported purchasing black powder for as little as $10.00 per pound, shipped to their houses, I find it very difficult tu justify buying any of the substitutes, including any sold by Goex. When I hear that even the factory recommends using a starter charge of black powder, who needs it?

I the Mid 1970s, I was buying black powder from about $3.25 per pound, but then the dollar was worth so much more back then. Considering the devaluation of the dollar over the intervening 40 years, $12.00 per pound, for a small lot order of 5 lbs. does not seem too much to pay today. I am sure that the companies that are selling the subs are watching these forums. Its free marketing information, and often free Research and Development for them. I am going to let someone else pay for their R&D and stick with Black Powder. If the price of Swiss powder comes down, I may try some of that, one day, but I can't see much reason to pay more money for something I am just going to burn up! That may be some of my Dutch and Scott-irish blood in me, or just the hard headed Swedish blood in me, but My father would never spend money needlessly, and I came by this honestly from him. I could always burn the cheaper powders, tell everyone I am using the more expensive stuff, and then, if I had to sooth my conscience, take out the difference in dollar bills and simply burn the bills! :rotf: :grin:

 

[Dphar]

"...I think you will find the manufacturers don't recommend this either..."

Actually, all the manufacturers do indeed recommend this...it's printed right on the instruction labels on their powder containers to consider using a small igniter charge of real BP downbore first.

The notion of not mixing powders has it's roots in the smokeless powder world where devastating results can occur

I have been wrong before and in this case typed without thinking, I mixed duplexing smokeless and Pyrodex in BPCRs, with shooting a flinter with the stuff. Thanks for the correction.

Mixing black and smokeless, Pyrodex and smokeless (I find the pyrodex/smokeless duplexing especially alarming) or misloading Pyrodex can have a devastating effects as well. But this is almost exclusively the realm of BPCR shooters.

I just tend to get nervous when people start mixing different propellants.

Dan