Earliest dated rifle?

[George]

In his book The Kentucky Rifle in 1972, Merrill Lindsay shows what was apparently thought at that time to be the earliest dated rifle found. It was signed on the barrel John Schreit 1761. Does anyone know if that has held up over the years?

Spence

 

[tenngun]

Is this for an american made dated rifle? Wheelock rifles were being made in early 16th century. The earliest off hand I can think of was 1516. This was a colts foot stock gun, a stock simular to crossbows of the time. In the 1730s a shooting contest in penn. offered a 'snaphance rifle' as the prize. In the middle 16th century 200 yard + rifle matchs were held. The German style gunstock mounted flintlock jaggers were being made before 1700.

 

[George]

I worded that poorly. He said this was considered the earliest dated American-made Kentucky rifle/longrifle. Is this still considered to be true after all the research which has taken place in the intervening 40+ years?

Spence

 

[tenngun]

Ah an American gun with a date engraved on it? I cant say I have read of an earlier one then that one.

 

[longcruise]

I think it is still considered at least one of the earliest.

 

[Captjoel]

Other than the controversial Martin Meylin rifle which is dated 1705. It is pictured and coming up for auction on the James Julia site. The Schreit rifle has been considered the earliest known dated piece. If you ever read Capt. John Dillin's book "The Kentucky Rifle", you will run across a couple of pictured rifle's that according to the author are dated with dates earlier than 1761. These I believe have been vetted and pronounced forged dates on old rifles by George Shumway.

 

[Captjoel]

After posting I got out my Dillin book and find the same rifle pictured twice in two different locations. Note I have the revised 7th edition of the book from 1975. In the earlier edition's you will find this rifle on different pages. On page 106 listed as "The Early Roesser And Two Later Rifles": By Matthias Roesser, Lancaster, PA; dated 1746; 59"; 44" octagon barrel; originally about 42 caliber; small wrist type; weight 8 lbs; bust of Indian engraved on upper butt plate; very handsome piece (from Dillin collection". This same rifle is again pictured on page 168 with the same description from the Dillin collection. I now find it strange that I cannot find any notes made by George Shumway in this volume to deny this rifle's claim of age! It sure would be nice to know where this ole girl is today!

 

[George]

The Schreit rifle is a beauty. Here are some photos I made of the pictures of it in the book, poor quality but you can get the idea. It is described as 58 3/4" overall, 43 5/16" barrel, .52 caliber, rifled. There is only incised carving, no relief, but those lovely moldings along the ramrod groove and the lower butt stock. Engraving on the brass furniture, including the side plate, the butt plate return and a chevron on the muzzle cap. Single trigger. What can you tell me about the lock?







Spence

 

[longcruise]

Are you saying Shumway is suspected of forging dates?

 

[Captjoel]

No

 

[LaBonte]

The Schreit rifle as seen today is not in original condition - there have been at least two changes in it IIRC. Older photos show it with an almost massive Germanic looking trigger guard made from horn and it had a dropped wrist (think that's what it's called). Some what later the guard was replaced with a brass one and the dropped wrist had been changed to it's current look. IIRC a that TG was replaced with the current one.
This a big heavy rifle according to those who have handled it such as Eric Kettenburg - the barrel is something like 1 5/16" at the breech and has very little taper/swamp to it.
There has been a fair amount of discussion this rifle over the years on ALR. As for the date I believe it is still in contention, with some experts saying yes and others saying it's a later rifle.
While the dating of the earliest American made long rifle's appearance is still in contention, their were both German and English made rifles being used in the colonies and on the frontier long before 1761, especially in those areas where German immigrants settled. Daniel Boone is noted as having used a short English rifle in the 1740's IIRC.

 

[rich pierce]

A rifle similar to rifle #19 in Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America has recently come to light as well as correspondence regarding #19 that indicates both were made by Andreas Albrecht and pre-date the Schreit rifle. Of course there are those who are convinced and some who do not.

I would not trust the dating in either the Dillon book or Kindig's "Golden Age" books. A lot has been learned since those books came out.

 

[galamb]

Spence, I will take that "dated" is your keyword here.

I would think/assume that there was some "American" made long rifles built before the earliest "dated" one - even if it was only a few.

As an example, Wolfgang Haga is noted working in Reading, as a gunsmith, as early as 1758 (earliest records on him although he arrived 3 to 5 years before that date) but unfortunately he didn't date anything - worse yet, he didn't appear to sign any of his rifles.

Maybe these very early gunsmiths only fixed over-seas arms, or maybe they just didn't date rifles they were building in the 1750's.

Most were immigrants who had been building before they emigrated. It seems unlikely that they would give that up all together for say 10 or 15 years and then start back up again. :idunno:

 

[longcruise]

One factor in dating and signing rifles could be the relationship between the Crown and the colonies. The colonies were seen as a source of raw materials for the motherland where they were converted to consumer goods with some sold back to the colonists. The king frowned on the idea of colonists manufacturing their own products. In that light, why would a Smith put his name and date on the illegal products.

 

[George]

Spence, I will take that "dated" is your keyword here.

Yes. Being the complete amateur when it comes to the study of the old guns that I am, I still have the quaint notion that a gun signed and dated by the maker has a firmer place in the chronology than any which are attributed to either school or builder. Crazy, i know, but that's the way I am. :grin:

Spence

 

[Dphar]

In his book The Kentucky Rifle in 1972, Merrill Lindsay shows what was apparently thought at that time to be the earliest dated rifle found. It was signed on the barrel John Schreit 1761. Does anyone know if that has held up over the years?

Spence

So far as anyone knows this is the earliest dated Kentucky that people generally accept. There are spurious markings on rifles put on to deceive people. Here is a discussion that you might find interesting and informative.
Dan
Rifle discussion

 

[Dphar]

I would also point out that the Schreit rifle was modified at one time to make it less Germanic. It was originally a stepped wrist rifle and apparently has had at least 3 trigger guards. The current one being the second known replacement.

Dan

 

[George]

Thanks, Dan. The link won't open for me.

Spence

 

[Dphar]

After posting I got out my Dillin book and find the same rifle pictured twice in two different locations. Note I have the revised 7th edition of the book from 1975. In the earlier edition's you will find this rifle on different pages. On page 106 listed as "The Early Roesser And Two Later Rifles": By Matthias Roesser, Lancaster, PA; dated 1746; 59"; 44" octagon barrel; originally about 42 caliber; small wrist type; weight 8 lbs; bust of Indian engraved on upper butt plate; very handsome piece (from Dillin collection". This same rifle is again pictured on page 168 with the same description from the Dillin collection. I now find it strange that I cannot find any notes made by George Shumway in this volume to deny this rifle's claim of age! It sure would be nice to know where this ole girl is today!

This is a certainly a spurious date and marking. IE a forgery. The rifle pictured is far later probably 1790 or later.
See the discussion I linked in previous post.

Dan

P.S. attempted to link.

 

[Dphar]

Try typing
americanlongriflesorg/forum/index.php?topic=31393.0

Trying to get this site to allow access to another site is a PITA